Cannon 1345 Besançon Bibliothèque municipale ms. 864

Marcus den toom · 18th March 2015, 01:41 PM

This manuscript, depicting the hundred years war, also depicts 2 cannons on page 112R. This illustration was made in 1345 (?) or close to that date. The series of books comprises from 4 volumes.

Qoute:"fol. 112r: Giac Master. The Siege of Auberoche (Périgord) by the count of Lille (1345). On a bluff high above its besiegers stands the fortress of Auberoche with its roof and corner turrets covered with blue tiles, towering above and beyond the limits of the miniature’s frame. The fortress was besieged in October 1345 by the troops of count Bertrand de Lille-Jourdain, arrayed here in kettle hats and ‘white armour’ (plates) comprising breastplate or cuirass, skirt with tassets, pauldrons (protecting the shoulders), plate rondels (over the elbows), plate gauntlets, poleyns (for the knees), greaves (leg defenses) and sabatons for the feet. Two artillerymen kneel at their bombards, which are encircled with iron bands and mounted on wooden limbers, firing large stone balls towards the fortress walls. The damage these could do is described in another passage from the Chronicles: ‘So four large siege engines were sent for from Toulouse, and they had them brought hither on carts and raised in front of the fortress. And the French conducted their assault with these only, the engines hurling heavy stone projectiles at and into the castle. This dismayed the defenders more than anything else; within six days the projectiles had battered down most of the upper parts of the towers, so that neither the knights nor the castle’s garrison dared to stay put, save in vaulted chambers underground’."

http://www.hrionline.ac.uk/onlinefro...alShf=&panes=1
http://www.hrionline.ac.uk/onlinefro...com&node=Bes-1

Andi · 18th March 2015, 10:07 PM

Hello Marcus
According to the bibliographical description the book dates to ca. 1410–1420 and according to typological characteristics of the illumination and the depicted clothing and armour in my opinion supports this dating into the early 15th century. The illuminations definitively are showing somewhat old fashioned clothing compared to France in the 1410s but they are definifely not showing clothing characteristics of the 1340s. I guess the illumination was painted shortly in after 1400.

Marcus den toom · 18th March 2015, 10:16 PM

Hi Andi,
Thank you, yes i was looking for that date as well but couldn't find it any where
You are absolutly right about the style as well..

Still a nice picture

Andi · 18th March 2015, 10:22 PM

Sorry Marcus - I totally forgot to thank you for discovering this beautyful illustration which was unknown to me so far ..

Marcus den toom · 18th March 2015, 10:37 PM

No problem, it is my pleasure realy

I found lots of other pictures today as well.
I was trown by the simplicity of the mortars.. the Bellefortis is more complex than this picture. It is a miniature though so taking that in mind this is a most appt depiction of a early 15th century mortar.

I am putting them up on Pinterest, but here are the links for your enjoyment

Best,
Marcus

http://gallicalabs.bnf.fr/ark:/12148...90370/f99.zoom
http://gallicalabs.bnf.fr/ark:/12148...0370/f113.zoom
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/551339179357923616/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/3932/10782/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ba..._Istanbul-.jpg

Andi · 19th March 2015, 10:00 PM

Thank you soo much

Battle of Nicopolis, 1396, Facsimile of a Miniature Conserved in the Topkapi Museum in Istanbul

I am not really familiar with islamic / otoman art but due to the clothing details of the red coated European looking man in the lower center of the image I would date it into the mid/late 17th century. What do you think?

Marcus den toom · 19th March 2015, 10:18 PM

Almost correct Andi

But no worries, seeing as that battle was fought with so many ethnically and stylisticly different people there was almost no way of knowing this.
It was made in 1523 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire (large scale: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._Nicopolis.jpg)
Edit: Am i mistaken when i see that the chap next to the one in the red coat (bottom left) is setting him on fire

Also these middle eastern weapons (just scroll down from the first picture and you will find more).
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/541557923915486756/

And:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_...%A1cs_1526.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_...leymanname.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janissaries

Andi · 20th March 2015, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus den toom

... Am i mistaken when i see that the chap next to the one in the red coat (bottom left) is setting him on fire

...

You are right. Great, this detail wasn't visible on the small image.

It looks like a classical case of "firendly fire"

18th March 2015, 01:41 PM	#1
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 525	Cannon 1345 Besançon Bibliothèque municipale ms. 864 This manuscript, depicting the hundred years war, also depicts 2 cannons on page 112R. This illustration was made in 1345 (?) or close to that date. The series of books comprises from 4 volumes. Qoute:"fol. 112r: Giac Master. The Siege of Auberoche (Périgord) by the count of Lille (1345). On a bluff high above its besiegers stands the fortress of Auberoche with its roof and corner turrets covered with blue tiles, towering above and beyond the limits of the miniature’s frame. The fortress was besieged in October 1345 by the troops of count Bertrand de Lille-Jourdain, arrayed here in kettle hats and ‘white armour’ (plates) comprising breastplate or cuirass, skirt with tassets, pauldrons (protecting the shoulders), plate rondels (over the elbows), plate gauntlets, poleyns (for the knees), greaves (leg defenses) and sabatons for the feet. Two artillerymen kneel at their bombards, which are encircled with iron bands and mounted on wooden limbers, firing large stone balls towards the fortress walls. The damage these could do is described in another passage from the Chronicles: ‘So four large siege engines were sent for from Toulouse, and they had them brought hither on carts and raised in front of the fortress. And the French conducted their assault with these only, the engines hurling heavy stone projectiles at and into the castle. This dismayed the defenders more than anything else; within six days the projectiles had battered down most of the upper parts of the towers, so that neither the knights nor the castle’s garrison dared to stay put, save in vaulted chambers underground’." http://www.hrionline.ac.uk/onlinefro...alShf=&panes=1 http://www.hrionline.ac.uk/onlinefro...com&node=Bes-1 Last edited by Marcus den toom; 18th March 2015 at 03:00 PM.

19th March 2015, 10:18 PM	#7
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 525	Almost correct Andi But no worries, seeing as that battle was fought with so many ethnically and stylisticly different people there was almost no way of knowing this. It was made in 1523 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire (large scale: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._Nicopolis.jpg) Edit: Am i mistaken when i see that the chap next to the one in the red coat (bottom left) is setting him on fire Also these middle eastern weapons (just scroll down from the first picture and you will find more). https://www.pinterest.com/pin/541557923915486756/ And: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_...%A1cs_1526.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_...leymanname.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janissaries Last edited by Marcus den toom; 19th March 2015 at 10:36 PM.

18th March 2015, 10:07 PM	#2
Andi Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Halstenbek, Germany Posts: 203	Hello Marcus According to the bibliographical description the book dates to ca. 1410–1420 and according to typological characteristics of the illumination and the depicted clothing and armour in my opinion supports this dating into the early 15th century. The illuminations definitively are showing somewhat old fashioned clothing compared to France in the 1410s but they are definifely not showing clothing characteristics of the 1340s. I guess the illumination was painted shortly in after 1400.

18th March 2015, 10:16 PM	#3
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 525	Hi Andi, Thank you, yes i was looking for that date as well but couldn't find it any where You are absolutly right about the style as well.. Still a nice picture

18th March 2015, 10:22 PM	#4
Andi Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Halstenbek, Germany Posts: 203	Sorry Marcus - I totally forgot to thank you for discovering this beautyful illustration which was unknown to me so far ..

18th March 2015, 10:37 PM	#5
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 525	No problem, it is my pleasure realy I found lots of other pictures today as well. I was trown by the simplicity of the mortars.. the Bellefortis is more complex than this picture. It is a miniature though so taking that in mind this is a most appt depiction of a early 15th century mortar. I am putting them up on Pinterest, but here are the links for your enjoyment Best, Marcus http://gallicalabs.bnf.fr/ark:/12148...90370/f99.zoom http://gallicalabs.bnf.fr/ark:/12148...0370/f113.zoom https://www.pinterest.com/pin/551339179357923616/ http://manuscriptminiatures.com/3932/10782/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ba..._Istanbul-.jpg

19th March 2015, 10:00 PM	#6
Andi Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Halstenbek, Germany Posts: 203	Thank you soo much Battle of Nicopolis, 1396, Facsimile of a Miniature Conserved in the Topkapi Museum in Istanbul I am not really familiar with islamic / otoman art but due to the clothing details of the red coated European looking man in the lower center of the image I would date it into the mid/late 17th century. What do you think?