New acquisition

Shakethetrees · 22nd February 2015, 08:41 PM

This dagger is 18" overall with a 13" blade. The grip is of green horn. An interesting feature is the stubby guard with bulbous quillions. The layering of its wrought iron manufacture is evident in the second image.

The long raised rib was probably there to increase the stiffness of the double edged blade.

So, my general idea is that it probably dates from the 17th century and possibly from as late as circa 1720's.

The guard, offset grip and overall proportions lead me to believe it falls somewhere in this date range.

As far as country of origin, I have not been convinced yet.

The green horn was from a species of cattle that was, according to one source, from Germany and was exported to different countries to be used as knife/edged weapon grips.

The quillions bear a strong resemblance to turnings found on Baroque era Northern European furniture, with a subset of that style being called "Jacobean" in England.

I welcome any comments, questions or additions. This dagger is not what I usually find, (or pursue), for that matter, so my comments are based solely on the study of images found in paintings, and furniture from the 17th century and slightly later.

Shakethetrees · 22nd February 2015, 08:50 PM

There is a false backstrap carved integrally from the horn grip.

The oval pommel is mounted with a wrought iron cap, securing the peened tang button.

Shakethetrees · 22nd February 2015, 08:52 PM

It would help if I remembered to add the images!

corrado26 · 23rd February 2015, 09:06 AM

How large is the blade directly under the quillon in cm, please?
corrado26

Shakethetrees · 25th February 2015, 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

How large is the blade directly under the quillon in cm, please?
corrado26

Across the width of the ricasso right next to the cross guard is 27mm.

corrado26 · 25th February 2015, 08:14 AM

I have the suspision that this object could have been made from an Austrian bajonett M 1854 for the Lorenz-rifle. This bajonet has a width at the end of its blade of 26,9mm.
corrado26

M ELEY · 25th February 2015, 03:16 PM

Hmmm...The hilt on this piece looks exactly as you guessed, 17th. The blade has honest aging/patina to it. There were certainly ribbed blades with expanded bolsters at this time to aid in armor-piercing. Yes, many bayonet blades had this feature, but I think yours is original to the piece. Not my area, but some research might turn up similar pieces with the thickened/ribbed ridge blade?

Shakethetrees · 25th February 2015, 05:39 PM

The "flanges" of the blade are very thin, almost razor-like. The taper is unlike the taper of the Lorenz, and all other socket bayonets I have see over the years.

In looking at the pommel button and the guard/blade interface, I do not believe it has been apart.

I have un hilted many blades in order to do restoration.i understand how to "cover the tracks" when reassembling. This piece does not have the tell-tale signs of ever having been un-hilted.

I may have access to a Lorenz bayonet. If I can find it, I will add side by side comparison images.

Will M · 25th February 2015, 06:25 PM

What is the width 10" from the guard? I have a Lorenz bayonet and I don't believe it looks as wide that far out.

fernando · 25th February 2015, 08:35 PM

Hi Shakethetrees,
Try and trim the size of your images before you upload them; they may well do with 'half of the height'

.

Concerning your interesting piece and not having the knowledge to precise what it is about, i too suspect that all three parts come from different provenance. I have a fantasy that the handle may have belonged in a hunting sword and the guard in a stiletto... but don't pay much notice to my inconsistent opinion

.

Will M · 26th February 2015, 04:12 AM

10" from the base of a Lorenz blade is 3/4" wide. At the ricasso is 1" wide and 1/2" thick. Seems likely your dagger is a cut down Lorenz

Shakethetrees · 26th February 2015, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will M

10" from the base of a Lorenz blade is 3/4" wide. At the ricasso is 1" wide and 1/2" thick. Seems likely your dagger is a cut down Lorenz

It's a bit over 3/4" wide at 10" from the guard, and slightly under 5/16" thick, top of the spine to top of the spine at the guard. At the ricasso, it's about 1 1/32".

The taper of the blade overall along the length is not the same as a Lorenz. The bayonet's taper is straight to almost the point, while this blade runs out toward the point in a gentle curve, with the curve becoming more pronounced in the last few inches. The flanges are almost razor-like, too thin for a bayonet.

Will M · 26th February 2015, 06:45 AM

That does sound different then that bayonet. Can you picture it on edge?

Definitely a thruster with a stiff designed blade.

22nd February 2015, 08:41 PM	#1
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	New acquisition This dagger is 18" overall with a 13" blade. The grip is of green horn. An interesting feature is the stubby guard with bulbous quillions. The layering of its wrought iron manufacture is evident in the second image. The long raised rib was probably there to increase the stiffness of the double edged blade. So, my general idea is that it probably dates from the 17th century and possibly from as late as circa 1720's. The guard, offset grip and overall proportions lead me to believe it falls somewhere in this date range. As far as country of origin, I have not been convinced yet. The green horn was from a species of cattle that was, according to one source, from Germany and was exported to different countries to be used as knife/edged weapon grips. The quillions bear a strong resemblance to turnings found on Baroque era Northern European furniture, with a subset of that style being called "Jacobean" in England. I welcome any comments, questions or additions. This dagger is not what I usually find, (or pursue), for that matter, so my comments are based solely on the study of images found in paintings, and furniture from the 17th century and slightly later. Attached Images

22nd February 2015, 08:50 PM	#2
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	More images There is a false backstrap carved integrally from the horn grip. The oval pommel is mounted with a wrought iron cap, securing the peened tang button. Last edited by Shakethetrees; 22nd February 2015 at 08:51 PM. Reason: Mis spelled word!

22nd February 2015, 08:52 PM	#3
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	It would help if I remembered to add the images! Attached Images

25th February 2015, 08:14 AM	#6
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,206	I have the suspision that this object could have been made from an Austrian bajonett M 1854 for the Lorenz-rifle. This bajonet has a width at the end of its blade of 26,9mm. corrado26 Attached Images

23rd February 2015, 09:06 AM	#4
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,206	How large is the blade directly under the quillon in cm, please? corrado26

25th February 2015, 03:16 PM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,100	Hmmm...The hilt on this piece looks exactly as you guessed, 17th. The blade has honest aging/patina to it. There were certainly ribbed blades with expanded bolsters at this time to aid in armor-piercing. Yes, many bayonet blades had this feature, but I think yours is original to the piece. Not my area, but some research might turn up similar pieces with the thickened/ribbed ridge blade?

25th February 2015, 05:39 PM	#8
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	The "flanges" of the blade are very thin, almost razor-like. The taper is unlike the taper of the Lorenz, and all other socket bayonets I have see over the years. In looking at the pommel button and the guard/blade interface, I do not believe it has been apart. I have un hilted many blades in order to do restoration.i understand how to "cover the tracks" when reassembling. This piece does not have the tell-tale signs of ever having been un-hilted. I may have access to a Lorenz bayonet. If I can find it, I will add side by side comparison images.

25th February 2015, 06:25 PM	#9
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 391	What is the width 10" from the guard? I have a Lorenz bayonet and I don't believe it looks as wide that far out.

25th February 2015, 08:35 PM	#10
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Shakethetrees, Try and trim the size of your images before you upload them; they may well do with 'half of the height' . Concerning your interesting piece and not having the knowledge to precise what it is about, i too suspect that all three parts come from different provenance. I have a fantasy that the handle may have belonged in a hunting sword and the guard in a stiletto... but don't pay much notice to my inconsistent opinion .

26th February 2015, 04:12 AM	#11
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 391	10" from the base of a Lorenz blade is 3/4" wide. At the ricasso is 1" wide and 1/2" thick. Seems likely your dagger is a cut down Lorenz

26th February 2015, 06:45 AM	#13
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 391	That does sound different then that bayonet. Can you picture it on edge? Definitely a thruster with a stiff designed blade.