Tebu or not Tebu

Marcus · 7th December 2014, 10:21 PM

The original attribution of this sword was to the Tebu (Toubou) people of Chad, although with the provision that it was much longer than typical for a Tebu weapon. It is made from a single piece of steel from the pommel to the unsharpened tip. I sent pictures to an anthropologist friend who is working with people in Chad and he showed the pictures to natives in northern Chad, the former Kanem empire. They were of the opinion it was not Toubou. His e-mail said “It is traditional Gorand from Bourku”. All I could get from Wikipedia on the Gorand was that “the Daza are also known as the Goran in Chad”. Artzi has a couple other similar swords, anyone know about weapons of the Daza (Goran)?
Marcus

Martin Lubojacky · 7th December 2014, 11:10 PM

Hi Marcus,
I saw identical sword in the museum in Chartum - but this means nothing - there was no allocation. So sorry for not being useful. Nevertheless that sword was old, I would say 19 th century.
Martin

Marcus · 7th December 2014, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Lubojacky

...Nevertheless that sword was old, I would say 19 th century.
Martin

The age was another thing I was curious about. Thanks.

Iain · 10th December 2014, 10:01 PM

Hi Marcus,

A few points, there are a number of sub types within this general family of "skull crusher" pommeled swords and daggers.

It's always great to get "on the ground" information from someone in the area. These could well be Daza, although the Daza are a sub group within the Tebu along with the Teda.

Similar swords can be found in North Cameroon as well.

The large midrib is a design choice that makes quite a bit of sense (and not present on the daggers) due to the length of these swords. In a way both the daggers and the swords follow a similar design thesis to the Roman gladius and spatha. The latter of course being for cavalry use typically.

I suspect much the same for these long Chadic swords. The Teda and Daza both have long equestrian traditions. They are nice looking things, I use to have one myself which I've attached.

Marcus · 11th December 2014, 01:23 AM

Yes, your sword is very similar. By the way, my friend in Chad adds that the Goran (or Gouran, it is all phonetic) are distinctively different from the Toubou, the Toubou are a bit further north. And generally lighter skinned, more Libyan in features, less Bantu features.

Iain · 11th December 2014, 09:04 AM

Hi Marcus,

The term Tebu, or Toubou, is actually a relatively late term, but most commonly is tied to the Teda.

However when I say the Teda and Daza are related, it refers to the linguistic group more than anything. The Teda reside in the north, the Daza to the south.

So you friend may well be making the Teda/Daza distinction.

I do think Goran is likely to refer to the Daza although I have to admit Chad is not my area of speciality.

Tim Simmons · 11th December 2014, 09:48 AM

Great to see another of these swords. I was once the owner of one. What is most interesting is that they are both made in the same way. Two pieces of blade welded together. Having held one, the weld is no scruffy repair, you can imagine the collectors opinions on seeing just one sword. The blade remains fully functional. Viewing two examples, shows this is a traditional way of making a long blade in this particular region. What would be good, if it could possibly be shown without any doubt how the weld was made ie fire weld or gas? Of all the Tabouka like swords these seem to be fairly uncommon.

colin henshaw · 11th December 2014, 10:28 AM

Good-looking swords. The metal has that grey, softish look of native-smelted iron...is this a likelihood ?

Iain · 11th December 2014, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Great to see another of these swords. I was once the owner of one. What is most interesting is that they are both made in the same way. Two pieces of blade welded together. Having held one, the weld is no scruffy repair, you can imagine the collectors opinions on seeing just one sword. The blade remains fully functional. Viewing two examples, shows this is a traditional way of making a long blade in this particular region. What would be good, if it could possibly be shown without any doubt how the weld was made ie fire weld or gas? Of all the Tabouka like swords these seem to be fairly uncommon.

Hi Tim, I'm not seeing a weld on Marcus' sword? The one I showed is the same you used to own.

Colin, yes I think these are locally smelted iron.

Oriental-Arms · 11th December 2014, 11:52 AM

In the last couple of years several of these long Tebu swords popped up in the French markets. All of very similar dimensions and construction. See below another nice exemplar, unfortunately without a scabbard.

Tim Simmons · 11th December 2014, 04:21 PM

Here?

Iain · 11th December 2014, 04:27 PM

Hmm, could be, but it doesn't seem clear cut like the example you and I had to examine. The join doesn't seem to cross the spine. Perhaps Marcus can add his thoughts?

Tim Simmons · 11th December 2014, 04:55 PM

It looks like it may be staggered at the opposite sides and there appears to be a kind of lump between?

Marcus · 12th December 2014, 11:46 PM

Nothing on my sword looks like a weld to me. I asked my blacksmith friend Steve Bloom, who makes knives and short swords from his own pattern weld Damascus how he thought it might have been made:

"Start with a square piece -- on the diamond -- work it between two plate of steel - each with a grove aligned over the other - one "corner" into the bottom and one (the opposite) into the top. Mash. I've seen (Al) Pendray do this this. With a top & bottom tool, it isn't that hard."

Tim Simmons · 13th December 2014, 12:37 AM

Well there we are, not hard to do but clever non the less. Very informative thread.

Iain · 13th December 2014, 11:32 AM

Yep, that makes sense. Forge welding packets.

7th December 2014, 10:21 PM	#1
Marcus Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 420	Tebu or not Tebu The original attribution of this sword was to the Tebu (Toubou) people of Chad, although with the provision that it was much longer than typical for a Tebu weapon. It is made from a single piece of steel from the pommel to the unsharpened tip. I sent pictures to an anthropologist friend who is working with people in Chad and he showed the pictures to natives in northern Chad, the former Kanem empire. They were of the opinion it was not Toubou. His e-mail said “It is traditional Gorand from Bourku”. All I could get from Wikipedia on the Gorand was that “the Daza are also known as the Goran in Chad”. Artzi has a couple other similar swords, anyone know about weapons of the Daza (Goran)? Marcus Attached Images

10th December 2014, 10:01 PM	#4
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Hi Marcus, A few points, there are a number of sub types within this general family of "skull crusher" pommeled swords and daggers. It's always great to get "on the ground" information from someone in the area. These could well be Daza, although the Daza are a sub group within the Tebu along with the Teda. Similar swords can be found in North Cameroon as well. The large midrib is a design choice that makes quite a bit of sense (and not present on the daggers) due to the length of these swords. In a way both the daggers and the swords follow a similar design thesis to the Roman gladius and spatha. The latter of course being for cavalry use typically. I suspect much the same for these long Chadic swords. The Teda and Daza both have long equestrian traditions. They are nice looking things, I use to have one myself which I've attached. Attached Images

11th December 2014, 01:23 AM	#5
Marcus Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 420	similar indeed Yes, your sword is very similar. By the way, my friend in Chad adds that the Goran (or Gouran, it is all phonetic) are distinctively different from the Toubou, the Toubou are a bit further north. And generally lighter skinned, more Libyan in features, less Bantu features.

11th December 2014, 11:52 AM	#10
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	In the last couple of years several of these long Tebu swords popped up in the French markets. All of very similar dimensions and construction. See below another nice exemplar, unfortunately without a scabbard. Attached Images

11th December 2014, 04:21 PM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Here? Attached Images

7th December 2014, 11:10 PM	#2
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Hi Marcus, I saw identical sword in the museum in Chartum - but this means nothing - there was no allocation. So sorry for not being useful. Nevertheless that sword was old, I would say 19 th century. Martin

11th December 2014, 09:04 AM	#6
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Hi Marcus, The term Tebu, or Toubou, is actually a relatively late term, but most commonly is tied to the Teda. However when I say the Teda and Daza are related, it refers to the linguistic group more than anything. The Teda reside in the north, the Daza to the south. So you friend may well be making the Teda/Daza distinction. I do think Goran is likely to refer to the Daza although I have to admit Chad is not my area of speciality.

11th December 2014, 09:48 AM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Great to see another of these swords. I was once the owner of one. What is most interesting is that they are both made in the same way. Two pieces of blade welded together. Having held one, the weld is no scruffy repair, you can imagine the collectors opinions on seeing just one sword. The blade remains fully functional. Viewing two examples, shows this is a traditional way of making a long blade in this particular region. What would be good, if it could possibly be shown without any doubt how the weld was made ie fire weld or gas? Of all the Tabouka like swords these seem to be fairly uncommon.

11th December 2014, 10:28 AM	#8
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Good-looking swords. The metal has that grey, softish look of native-smelted iron...is this a likelihood ?

11th December 2014, 04:27 PM	#12
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Hmm, could be, but it doesn't seem clear cut like the example you and I had to examine. The join doesn't seem to cross the spine. Perhaps Marcus can add his thoughts?

11th December 2014, 04:55 PM	#13
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	It looks like it may be staggered at the opposite sides and there appears to be a kind of lump between?

12th December 2014, 11:46 PM	#14
Marcus Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 420	I don't see a weld Nothing on my sword looks like a weld to me. I asked my blacksmith friend Steve Bloom, who makes knives and short swords from his own pattern weld Damascus how he thought it might have been made: "Start with a square piece -- on the diamond -- work it between two plate of steel - each with a grove aligned over the other - one "corner" into the bottom and one (the opposite) into the top. Mash. I've seen (Al) Pendray do this this. With a top & bottom tool, it isn't that hard."

13th December 2014, 12:37 AM	#15
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Well there we are, not hard to do but clever non the less. Very informative thread.

13th December 2014, 11:32 AM	#16
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Yep, that makes sense. Forge welding packets.