Moroccan Pistols

Kubur · 7th December 2014, 03:25 PM

Thanks
I have seen these pistols in your book.
There is another kind of Moroccan pistol with a circular / discoid butt.
Not for tourist. Often associated with miquelet lock.
Some locks are purely Spanish, others are influenced by Dutch productions.
Remember that the kingdom of Spain extended up to Holland before.
I know the bone inlays models that you mentioned, they are from the first quarter of the 20th c. They did the same decoration with some koummiya as well. Please, note also that these productions were not only for tourists but also for parades and fantasia. I will post examples of these objects, already sold.

Kubur · 9th December 2014, 05:02 PM

The photos, the first pistol is what you said Oliver, the others are typical Moroccan pistols, 19th c., very similar to those of the Riff and the Moukhala rifles...
Best

Kubur · 9th December 2014, 06:47 PM

Sorry the pistols above are all 19th, i will upload the 20th later (bones inlays).

Kubur · 10th December 2014, 01:19 PM

The later, 20th, tourist piece? that I promised...

Oliver Pinchot · 10th December 2014, 05:56 PM

In order to discuss these seriously, Kubur, better pics are called for. It would be interesting to see additional legitimate forms of Moroccan firearm emerge, however as it stands, none of these inspire particular confidence as to age or "fireability" except the last one in your earlier post, which is not only authentic but quite early-- it retains the original form of the English and Scottish pistols on which it was based, and is certainly datable before 1800.

Authenticity is contextual; one has to take the cultures which produced them and their intended purpose into consideration. For example, as you mentioned, if pistols of this form were made as props to be worn at traditional celebrations, then they may be "authentic" accoutrements, even though they were never intended to fire... and so on. I saw a vast number of these with circular butts in Moroccan souks, as I'm sure other forum members have. Are you able to examine any of them in hand? As for the last piece you pictured, yes, it's clearly contemporary. But that doesn't necessarily legitimize the others. Remember that there have been trinkets for as long as there were travelers to buy them. And that is a very long time. The example you show with a miquelet looks like a reasonable copy of a Spanish pistol, and the one following that evokes Belgian military pistols, but again, it's hard to tell much about their age from the pics. Then there is the question of what constitutes a form, and what is just a local copy.

What defines a tourist item also hinges on perspective: If you and I buy a well made and embellished contemporary dagger from a stall in the Meknes souk while a Berber next to us buys a similar one to wear to a wedding, is it a tourist piece because we bought one, or authentic because the Berber did? Too many factors play into the question, I prefer a simpler approach: Is the object intended to be used as a weapon, and how old is it?

Kubur · 10th December 2014, 10:47 PM

it retains the original form of the English and Scottish pistols on which it was based, and is certainly datable before 1800.

It is wrong, the shape is older and goes back to the Wheelock’s pistols, not only the British ones, may be more familiar to you. More seriously about authenticity, we all know that. May be you didn’t get my point: you have another model of Moroccan pistol who is clearly not the one that you published. The pair that you published is North African, probably Moroccan. The circular butts are more common in Morocco and were indeed reproduced for parades or touristic purposes. I think also that the last one of the first series is older may be 18th c. The others pistols are 19th c. Yes, I showed one miquelet who is a copy of Spanish pistol due to the old relations between the two countries, Spain and Morocco. The miquelet called also snaphaunce for North African long guns. Please, to learn, it is important to listen others and to not be so categorical or haughty. Despite my comments I agree with your last sentence of course!

Kubur · 13th June 2015, 11:32 AM

Another Moroccan pistol of mine

Kubur

9th December 2014, 05:02 PM	#2
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	The photos, the first pistol is what you said Oliver, the others are typical Moroccan pistols, 19th c., very similar to those of the Riff and the Moukhala rifles... Best Attached Images

10th December 2014, 01:19 PM	#4
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	The later, 20th, tourist piece? that I promised... Attached Images

10th December 2014, 05:56 PM	#5
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 457	In order to discuss these seriously, Kubur, better pics are called for. It would be interesting to see additional legitimate forms of Moroccan firearm emerge, however as it stands, none of these inspire particular confidence as to age or "fireability" except the last one in your earlier post, which is not only authentic but quite early-- it retains the original form of the English and Scottish pistols on which it was based, and is certainly datable before 1800. Authenticity is contextual; one has to take the cultures which produced them and their intended purpose into consideration. For example, as you mentioned, if pistols of this form were made as props to be worn at traditional celebrations, then they may be "authentic" accoutrements, even though they were never intended to fire... and so on. I saw a vast number of these with circular butts in Moroccan souks, as I'm sure other forum members have. Are you able to examine any of them in hand? As for the last piece you pictured, yes, it's clearly contemporary. But that doesn't necessarily legitimize the others. Remember that there have been trinkets for as long as there were travelers to buy them. And that is a very long time. The example you show with a miquelet looks like a reasonable copy of a Spanish pistol, and the one following that evokes Belgian military pistols, but again, it's hard to tell much about their age from the pics. Then there is the question of what constitutes a form, and what is just a local copy. What defines a tourist item also hinges on perspective: If you and I buy a well made and embellished contemporary dagger from a stall in the Meknes souk while a Berber next to us buys a similar one to wear to a wedding, is it a tourist piece because we bought one, or authentic because the Berber did? Too many factors play into the question, I prefer a simpler approach: Is the object intended to be used as a weapon, and how old is it? Last edited by Oliver Pinchot; 10th December 2014 at 08:34 PM.

13th June 2015, 11:32 AM	#7
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Another Moroccan pistol of mine Kubur Attached Images

7th December 2014, 03:25 PM	#1
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Thanks I have seen these pistols in your book. There is another kind of Moroccan pistol with a circular / discoid butt. Not for tourist. Often associated with miquelet lock. Some locks are purely Spanish, others are influenced by Dutch productions. Remember that the kingdom of Spain extended up to Holland before. I know the bone inlays models that you mentioned, they are from the first quarter of the 20th c. They did the same decoration with some koummiya as well. Please, note also that these productions were not only for tourists but also for parades and fantasia. I will post examples of these objects, already sold.

9th December 2014, 06:47 PM	#3
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Sorry the pistols above are all 19th, i will upload the 20th later (bones inlays).

10th December 2014, 10:47 PM	#6
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	it retains the original form of the English and Scottish pistols on which it was based, and is certainly datable before 1800. It is wrong, the shape is older and goes back to the Wheelock’s pistols, not only the British ones, may be more familiar to you. More seriously about authenticity, we all know that. May be you didn’t get my point: you have another model of Moroccan pistol who is clearly not the one that you published. The pair that you published is North African, probably Moroccan. The circular butts are more common in Morocco and were indeed reproduced for parades or touristic purposes. I think also that the last one of the first series is older may be 18th c. The others pistols are 19th c. Yes, I showed one miquelet who is a copy of Spanish pistol due to the old relations between the two countries, Spain and Morocco. The miquelet called also snaphaunce for North African long guns. Please, to learn, it is important to listen others and to not be so categorical or haughty. Despite my comments I agree with your last sentence of course!