Restoration advice needed Moro? Kris

Shakethetrees · 6th October 2014, 07:45 AM

I know there are folks out there who can advise me on this gem!

I am not by any means an expert on keris and Philippine weapons, but I have had the good fortune to have acquired a few over the years.

The ivory broke fairly recently before I got it. The person I picked it up from is not very careful with his possessions, and I would guess he probably broke it by careless handling.

It took a couple of years of pestering to pry this one loose, but I can be very persistent!

The blade is inlaid with silver stars and semicircles, as well as a bit of line work extending toward the point.

The questions I have are:

I wish to polish the blade and inlays. Should I etch to attempt to find a pattern? Originally it was just polished. Finding a pattern by etching teaches us a lot by exposing a pattern, but would this have been a consideration back in the day, in the hands of the maker and original owner?

I can attach a piece of ivory and carve it to correct shape once I know what that shape is. Do any of you have an intact grip that I can see from several angles?

Once this repair has been done, should I polish the patina away to match the new ivory or darken the new work? (I think I know the correct answer here) however, patination of ivory is difficult, if not impossible. Over the last thirty years I have played around with this problem a bit and found that soaking in tea is an old wives tale. Either it does not work at all, or it works so well that the color is horrible and the surface is left rough if the soak is too long. A fine honey color has been elusive so far. Any tips?

The wood missing from the scabbard throat is some native wood that I don't know. How do I match it?

The cordage wrap is missing about half of its length. What was used to waterproof or stiffen it? What is a good modern replacement?

Finally, if there are any other suggestions covering topics that I might have missed, they will be most welcome!

Any and all suggestions, comments, criticisms (constructive, of course) are also welcome!

Maurice · 6th October 2014, 10:01 AM

A beautifull kris and I especially like the blade a lot!
I wouldn't do not much about it, as I like it the way it is. It shows character!
If the ferrule and metal piece just below the pommel is silver, I would clean it a bit to show it is silver, but not too much as I wouldn't clean the "character" away.
If it is brass, leave it as it is.
I know a lot of collectors wouldn't agree with me, but each his own. :-)
We discussed this a lot on the forum, but it is a matter of taste I guess.

A pity of the recent break off of the handle. That is always something that causes a kind of "eyesore" to me....

Again, I love the blade with those inlay a lot!

Regards,
Maurice

CharlesS · 6th October 2014, 01:06 PM

I would at least etch the blade. I would not be surprised at all if there is twistcore steel in the fullers. The handle can be rewrapped easily since both ends of the hilt mounts are still there(ferrule and silver top mount). The ivory I would leave alone.

Sajen · 6th October 2014, 02:48 PM

I am with Charles, the blade is beautiful and wouldn't be surprised when it will show twistcore in the fullers. So I don't see any reason to let the blade in this poor condition with some fresh rust at the edges. So I would polish and etch the blade. The wrapping at the handle I would replace also. A native would do the same when it is demaged.
A pity that the ivory pommel is demaged and I think that this can only be restored by someone who is an expert in this field.
I have seen a perfect ivory restauration by a kris from Jose here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=ivory+kris
I think this kris is worth a restauration like this. The scabbard could be restored as well but need a practised hand.

Regards,
Detlef

Maurice · 6th October 2014, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

I am with Charles, the blade is beautiful and wouldn't be surprised when it will show twistcore in the fullers.

Yes I agree with that also Detlef.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

So I don't see any reason to let the blade in this poor condition with some fresh rust at the edges. So I would polish and etch the blade.

Me neither! Agree to have it etched and get rid of the rust at the edges and bring out the twistcore in the fullers if there....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

The wrapping at the handle I would replace also. A native would do the same when it is demaged.

This I wouldn't do if it was mine and which I disagree. We are not a native afterall. ;-)
The ivory pommel though I would have liked to restore, as I hate to see recent break offs at old pieces. Than better have it restored well.
If a break off is very old and shows old patination of use and handling, I would prefer to keep it original instead of a restoration.

Regards,
Maurice

VANDOO · 6th October 2014, 04:28 PM

A VERY NICE KRIS WITH A VERY FINE BLADE.
THE MISSING PIECE OF IVORY ON THIS TYPE POMMEL IS LIKELY SMALL AND I THINK WOULD BE MORE TROUBLE MAKING SUCH A SMALL PIECE AND REFINISHING THE ENTIRE POMMEL SO NOT WORTH DOING. IF YOU COULD FIND THE SMALL PIECE AND GLUE IT BACK IN PLACE WOULD BE GOOD BUT MAKING A NEW PIECE AND MATCHING IT WOULD LIKELY BE VERY DIFFICULT TO DO A JOB SATISFACTORILY TO YOUR TASTE. THE PERSON WHO DID THE REPLACEMENT AND REPAIR ON JOSES IVORY POMMEL COULD LIKELY DO A SATISFACTORY JOB. IF I WERE TO TRY AND DO IT I WOULD LIKELY NOT BE ABLE TO GET IT JUST AS I LIKE. I DO TEND TO BE MORE CRITICAL OF MY OWN WORK THAN OF THAT DONE BY OTHERS, HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE WHAT YOU JUST DID.

Sajen · 6th October 2014, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maurice

This I wouldn't do if it was mine and which I disagree. We are not a native afterall. ;-)
The ivory pommel though I would have liked to restore, as I hate to see recent break offs at old pieces. Than better have it restored well.
If a break off is very old and shows old patination of use and handling, I would prefer to keep it original instead of a restoration.

Hi Maurice,

oh, I am a native german!

But like you said before, it will be a matter of personal taste!

I think it is just a cord wrapping, nobody will see from whom it's done!

Agree with you about the ivory, when it will be an old patinated break I also wouldn't care it but a so recent break is disturbing IMHO.

Regards,
Detlef

Maurice · 6th October 2014, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi Maurice,

oh, I am a native german!

But like you said before, it will be a matter of personal taste!

I think it is just a cord wrapping, nobody will see from whom it's done!

Agree with you about the ivory, when it will be an old patinated break I also wouldn't care it but a so recent break is disturbing IMHO.

Regards,
Detlef

Hi Detlef,

that is true, as long as they don't use some kind of glue and it can be removed it will be ok I guess and fine for me. :-)

Regards,
Maurice

Sajen · 7th October 2014, 12:18 AM

Hi Maurice,

so we have agreement!

Regards,
Detlef

Battara · 7th October 2014, 03:37 AM

Shakethetrees,

You have a nice piece there. If it were mine I would lightly polish and then etch the blade, replace (or have someone replace) the missing middle band, and then replace the missing wrap. On the ivory, either have an expert do it (and I know of one) or leave it alone. I could also see work on the scabbard wranga top.

I would also placed a possible estimate of early 1800s and possibly from the Maguindanao.

A true datu piece! Congratulations!

Shakethetrees · 7th October 2014, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Shakethetrees,

You have a nice piece there. If it were mine I would lightly polish and then etch the blade, replace (or have someone replace) the missing middle band, and then replace the missing wrap. On the ivory, either have an expert do it (and I know of one) or leave it alone. I could also see work on the scabbard wranga top.

I would also placed a possible estimate of early 1800s and possibly from the Maguindanao.

A true datu piece! Congratulations!

One day when things get settled with me I would be interested in the repair of the wranga and the ivory. I can take care of the rest.

Can you PM me with the details?

Thanks!

Battara · 7th October 2014, 07:24 PM

You have PM sir........

Shakethetrees · 9th October 2014, 04:55 AM

Today I got a chance to show this piece to a friend who is a wood expert. He also grew up in Thailand and knows native, tropical woods like the back of his hand. His family was in the lumber business and, so to speak, wood is in his blood!

While not a weapons guy, he studied it a bit and believes the scabbard is made of either tamarind or mango wood. A long shot would be wood from a rubber tree.

He's calling around to locate a little of both to do a comparison.

I think he's intrigued to the point where he may be able to help a bit.

However, I will need to find out what the missing bit looks like.

Thanks, Jose, for the lead to a person who is the ivory restorer. One thing I'm wondering, though, is, will be putting my kris at risk by mailing it? The new laws and seizures scare me to death!

6th October 2014, 07:45 AM	#1
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	Restoration advice needed Moro? Kris I know there are folks out there who can advise me on this gem! I am not by any means an expert on keris and Philippine weapons, but I have had the good fortune to have acquired a few over the years. The ivory broke fairly recently before I got it. The person I picked it up from is not very careful with his possessions, and I would guess he probably broke it by careless handling. It took a couple of years of pestering to pry this one loose, but I can be very persistent! The blade is inlaid with silver stars and semicircles, as well as a bit of line work extending toward the point. The questions I have are: I wish to polish the blade and inlays. Should I etch to attempt to find a pattern? Originally it was just polished. Finding a pattern by etching teaches us a lot by exposing a pattern, but would this have been a consideration back in the day, in the hands of the maker and original owner? I can attach a piece of ivory and carve it to correct shape once I know what that shape is. Do any of you have an intact grip that I can see from several angles? Once this repair has been done, should I polish the patina away to match the new ivory or darken the new work? (I think I know the correct answer here) however, patination of ivory is difficult, if not impossible. Over the last thirty years I have played around with this problem a bit and found that soaking in tea is an old wives tale. Either it does not work at all, or it works so well that the color is horrible and the surface is left rough if the soak is too long. A fine honey color has been elusive so far. Any tips? The wood missing from the scabbard throat is some native wood that I don't know. How do I match it? The cordage wrap is missing about half of its length. What was used to waterproof or stiffen it? What is a good modern replacement? Finally, if there are any other suggestions covering topics that I might have missed, they will be most welcome! Any and all suggestions, comments, criticisms (constructive, of course) are also welcome! Attached Images Last edited by Shakethetrees; 6th October 2014 at 07:59 AM. Reason: Clarification of text and photos

6th October 2014, 10:01 AM	#2
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,354	A beautifull kris and I especially like the blade a lot! I wouldn't do not much about it, as I like it the way it is. It shows character! If the ferrule and metal piece just below the pommel is silver, I would clean it a bit to show it is silver, but not too much as I wouldn't clean the "character" away. If it is brass, leave it as it is. I know a lot of collectors wouldn't agree with me, but each his own. :-) We discussed this a lot on the forum, but it is a matter of taste I guess. A pity of the recent break off of the handle. That is always something that causes a kind of "eyesore" to me.... Again, I love the blade with those inlay a lot! Regards, Maurice

6th October 2014, 01:06 PM	#3
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	I would at least etch the blade. I would not be surprised at all if there is twistcore steel in the fullers. The handle can be rewrapped easily since both ends of the hilt mounts are still there(ferrule and silver top mount). The ivory I would leave alone.

6th October 2014, 02:48 PM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,797	I am with Charles, the blade is beautiful and wouldn't be surprised when it will show twistcore in the fullers. So I don't see any reason to let the blade in this poor condition with some fresh rust at the edges. So I would polish and etch the blade. The wrapping at the handle I would replace also. A native would do the same when it is demaged. A pity that the ivory pommel is demaged and I think that this can only be restored by someone who is an expert in this field. I have seen a perfect ivory restauration by a kris from Jose here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=ivory+kris I think this kris is worth a restauration like this. The scabbard could be restored as well but need a practised hand. Regards, Detlef

6th October 2014, 04:28 PM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A VERY NICE KRIS WITH A VERY FINE BLADE. THE MISSING PIECE OF IVORY ON THIS TYPE POMMEL IS LIKELY SMALL AND I THINK WOULD BE MORE TROUBLE MAKING SUCH A SMALL PIECE AND REFINISHING THE ENTIRE POMMEL SO NOT WORTH DOING. IF YOU COULD FIND THE SMALL PIECE AND GLUE IT BACK IN PLACE WOULD BE GOOD BUT MAKING A NEW PIECE AND MATCHING IT WOULD LIKELY BE VERY DIFFICULT TO DO A JOB SATISFACTORILY TO YOUR TASTE. THE PERSON WHO DID THE REPLACEMENT AND REPAIR ON JOSES IVORY POMMEL COULD LIKELY DO A SATISFACTORY JOB. IF I WERE TO TRY AND DO IT I WOULD LIKELY NOT BE ABLE TO GET IT JUST AS I LIKE. I DO TEND TO BE MORE CRITICAL OF MY OWN WORK THAN OF THAT DONE BY OTHERS, HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE WHAT YOU JUST DID.

7th October 2014, 12:18 AM	#9
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,797	Hi Maurice, so we have agreement! Regards, Detlef

7th October 2014, 03:37 AM	#10
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,229	Shakethetrees, You have a nice piece there. If it were mine I would lightly polish and then etch the blade, replace (or have someone replace) the missing middle band, and then replace the missing wrap. On the ivory, either have an expert do it (and I know of one) or leave it alone. I could also see work on the scabbard wranga top. I would also placed a possible estimate of early 1800s and possibly from the Maguindanao. A true datu piece! Congratulations!

7th October 2014, 07:24 PM	#12
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,229	You have PM sir........

9th October 2014, 04:55 AM	#13
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	Today I got a chance to show this piece to a friend who is a wood expert. He also grew up in Thailand and knows native, tropical woods like the back of his hand. His family was in the lumber business and, so to speak, wood is in his blood! While not a weapons guy, he studied it a bit and believes the scabbard is made of either tamarind or mango wood. A long shot would be wood from a rubber tree. He's calling around to locate a little of both to do a comparison. I think he's intrigued to the point where he may be able to help a bit. However, I will need to find out what the missing bit looks like. Thanks, Jose, for the lead to a person who is the ivory restorer. One thing I'm wondering, though, is, will be putting my kris at risk by mailing it? The new laws and seizures scare me to death!