Moro helmet - Page 2

Oliver Pinchot · 28th September 2014, 05:12 PM

Thanks, Fernando. The images make a useful record of the European antecedents of this type of Moro helmet. And as you say, the engravings serve to remind us that a great deal of pride was associated with military skills and accoutrements, a concept which was central to every culture that used them. For this reason, the embellishment of arms and armor, to whatever degree, was likewise universal.

There are some rare insights to be had from cultures like the Moro groups, which produced, or at least used, armor into the 20th century, particularly against (and alongside) repeating firearms. Members with more specific knowledge than what has been discussed above, or who at least have further examples of Moro helmets or armor, kindly chime in.

estcrh · 28th September 2014, 10:06 PM

Here are a couple more images.

Battara · 29th September 2014, 03:57 AM

All of these great examples!

Oliver Pinchot · 29th September 2014, 05:41 AM

They really are, thanks estcrh. The postcard is helpful, too.

Generally then, there are several forms of Moro helmet. At least one is modeled on a fully-developed form of burgonet from the second half of the 16th century, characterized by a pronounced peak, comb and neckguard. Cheekplates, the other key characteristic of the prototype burgonet, are likewise present but substantially minimized in the Moro adaptation. This type of Moro helmet does not appear to be influenced at all by the morion (although sheet brass helmets made in Sulawesi in the 17-19th century duplicate them with a remarkable degree of detail.)

The original helmet I posted also has what appears to be some Neoclassical influence... or not. It could be that its simple, elegant, sweeping lines were adopted from parade helmets produced in Italy during the same era as the burgonet, which were popular among the Spanish nobility (given the popularity of Italian armor throughout the Mediterranean in this period, and the Aragonese Kingdom of Naples.) But it could as likely be a case of parallel development, in which Moro smiths simply refined and streamlined the design for their own purposes (lighter weight, less raw material and ease of manufacture, for example.)

Thus, what emerges from this very rudimentary examination is a tendency toward two subtypes of burgonet-style helmet produced by Moro smiths:

1) which more closely follows the lines of its European prototype, and tends to be embellished with a greater amount of pierced work

and

2) a seemingly lighter, simpler form which has little or no pierced decoration

I hope these very tentative conclusions will stimulate further discussion and discovery.

Sentrad · 29th September 2014, 09:15 AM

I am really very glad, that Oliver opened this thread to get more information about the armour of the Southern Philippines / Northern Indonesian region. As far as I know, both Portuguese and Spaniards introduced helmets of the Comb-Morion and Morion-Cabasset types made of steel and of bronze. Still today similar local made helmets are in use during festivities in the Bangsamoro region, the Northern Moluccas and Northern parts of Sulawesi, made out of copper alloys. Most of them are of brass, which is cheaper, but not as hard as bronze. Brass helmets are normally not as old as bronze helmets.
Originally Comb-Morions out of the Bangsamoro region had ear flaps, but nearly all I saw missed them or had later made replacements and I believe without having the helmet of the above mentioned eBay auction in hand, it is difficult decide wether the ear flaps are original or not. As far as I remember the Moro helmets in the Naval Museum and the Museo Nacional de Antropologia in Madrid are complete pieces with ear flaps and cheek pieces, perhaps one of our Spanish members could check how they look like?

Here are my helmets:
A Comb-Morion, greenish-brownish patinated bronze, with one plume holder; a crack int the peak guard; ear flaps are missing,
and a Morion-Cabasset, brownish patinated bronze, three plume holders, some holes in the corpus (corrosion? faults of the casting?).
(I did not make metallographical analyses, to check the components of the alloy.)

Udo

fernando · 29th September 2014, 01:58 PM

I could (and should) have mentioned that the paper i took the pictures from, in my post#30, were found HERE.

,

Oliver Pinchot · 29th September 2014, 07:26 PM

Thanks Udo, these are great contributions.
Your Moro helmet is of the form I'm calling type 2, as noted above. Can we see images of the interior, please?

The Sulawesi helmet is beautifully wrought and embossed. As a group, these tend to be very uniform in their construction and decoration. I've noticed that in older references, this type is usually ascribed to European craftsmen. But after examining several in hand, I find nothing to support this. There is a good thread on these helmets here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ulawesi+helmet The last entry by VVV is especially informative and just above that, Kino provided a nice photo of the Sultan of Celebes and his bodyguard, all of whom are wearing them.

By contrast, Sulwesi helmets are wrought of sheet, and so are far lighter than their Moro counterparts. It's well known that the Moros fought in armor; is there any data that indicates these helmets were worn in battle in the Moluccas and Sulawesi?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 1st October 2014, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

Thanks Udo, these are great contributions.
Your Moro helmet is of the form I'm calling type 2, as noted above. Can we see images of the interior, please?

The Sulawesi helmet is beautifully wrought and embossed. As a group, these tend to be very uniform in their construction and decoration. I've noticed that in older references, this type is usually ascribed to European craftsmen. But after examining several in hand, I find nothing to support this. There is a good thread on these helmets here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ulawesi+helmet The last entry by VVV is especially informative and just above that, Kino provided a nice photo of the Sultan of Celebes and his bodyguard, all of whom are wearing them.

By contrast, Sulwesi helmets are wrought of sheet, and so are far lighter than their Moro counterparts. It's well known that the Moros fought in armor; is there any data that indicates these helmets were worn in battle in the Moluccas and Sulawesi?

Salaams Oliver, It is great to see your posts... Although I tend to be engrossed in Arabian ethnographics I have to say this subject you have launched is very tempting to read into...Thank you !

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Oliver Pinchot · 1st October 2014, 04:52 PM

Salaam ya karim. La shakr al wajib!
My focus has always been the Middle East and Central Asia. It's a pleasure to explore this part of the Dar al Islam with our forum colleagues.

Ian · 1st October 2014, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

I could (and should) have mentioned that the paper i took the pictures from, in my post#30, were found HERE.

,

Fernando:

Thanks for the link to this excellent reference article.

Ian

estcrh · 1st October 2014, 07:18 PM

Here is a link to a Pinterest site with a few more helmet and armor pictures, there are some newly edited pictures of armor details that have not been seen before.

http://www.pinterest.com/worldantiqu...d-surrounding/

Oliver Pinchot · 1st October 2014, 08:49 PM

Forum members, estchr has done us all a great service here in posting numerous images of Moro and Indonesian armor on Pinterest. Many of these appear to be unpublished. It seems he has also annotated the images for us; thank you, estchr! I'm sure all that work was quite time consuming.

I just received this image of a Moro helmet which is of the first type, from a collector who says it weights around 4 lbs and isn't bad to wear for short periods (I didn't want to ask....)

Battara · 1st October 2014, 11:46 PM

Some great examples folks and research, thank you all!

estcrh · 2nd October 2014, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

Forum members, estchr has done us all a great service here in posting numerous images of Moro and Indonesian armor on Pinterest. Many of these appear to be unpublished. It seems he has also annotated the images for us; thank you, estchr! I'm sure all that work was quite time consuming.

Thanks Oliver, the images you and other forum members posted made me decide to finally put all of the images I have collected from this region in one place. I have done this with armor and weapons from other regions and it has proven to be a valuable research tool, having a pool of images to look at in one place allows you to see similarities and differences much easier.

Here is a very interesting armor and helmet. It is described as being from the Philippines. The armor is in the form of a cuirass, it and the helmet are made from from carabao horn (Philippine water buffalo). Both items appear to be European inspired. It is in the National Museum of Anthropology, Spain.

Possibly the predecessor of the later mail and plate armor and brass helmet or just another variation?

estcrh · 3rd October 2014, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

I just received this image of a Moro helmet which is of the first type, from a collector who says it weights around 4 lbs and isn't bad to wear for short periods (I didn't want to ask....)

Oliver, it looks like the ear guards on this one may have been replaced, they do not seem to match the rest of the helmet.

Here is something that I think no one has seen, the Portuguese gold helmet presented in the early 1600s by the Portuguese to the Raja Dom Alesu Ximines da Silva (Raja of Sikka) along with 70 elephant tusks and other assorted valuable items. The Sikka royal family name was changed as a show of allegiance with the Portuguese. When I compare this helmet to other examples it appears that there are some similarities, possibly the other examples were a reflection of the original helmet.

Here are a couple of pictures of Don Jozef Thomas Ximenes da Silva, Raja van Sikka from the 1900s, showing him wearing the same 17th century helmet and posing with what I assume is some of the original ivory elephant tusks given to his family by the Portuguese in the 17th century.

Also some comparative pictures of the original gold 17th century helmet and some other known examples. Its possible that the bosses around the base of some similar helmets are mimicking the spikes around the base of the original helmet. The middle image is the only known iron example of this type of Indonesian helmet.

fernando · 3rd October 2014, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

...Here is something that I think no one has seen, the Portuguese gold helmet presented in the early 1600s by the Portuguese to the Raja Dom Alesu Ximines da Silva (Raja of Sikka) along with 70 elephant tusks and other assorted valuable items. The Sikka royal family name was changed as a show of allegiance with the Portuguese...
...Here are a couple of pictures of Don Jozef Thomas Ximenes da Silva, Raja van Sikka from the 1900s, showing him wearing the same 17th century helmet and posing with what I assume is some of the original ivory elephant tusks given to his family by the Portuguese in the 17th century...

Outstanding material, estcrh.
I know nothing about helmets but, being an interested party, i browsed a bit on the subject.
I have located a blog in which the author visited Ilha das Flores in Indonesia in 2012 and had the chance to meet the Rajá of Maumere Dias Vieira Godinho, who still keeps the helmet once offered to his ancestor Dom Alexo Ximenes da Silva. Indeed this offer was made to seal an aliance, when the King of Portugal treated the Rajá as 'cousin', an attitude well kept in the heart of his descents.

I hope you guys don't get bored with these evasions from the topic

.

estcrh · 3rd October 2014, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Outstanding material, estcrh.
I know nothing about helmets but, being an interested party, i browsed a bit on the subject.
I have located a blog in which the author visited Ilha das Flores in Indonesia in 2012 and had the chance to meet the Rajá of Maumere Dias Vieira Godinho, who still keeps the helmet once offered to his ancestor Dom Alexo Ximenes da Silva. Indeed this offer was made to seal an aliance, when the King of Portugal treated the Rajá as 'cousin', an attitude well kept in the heart of his descents.

I hope you guys don't get bored with these evasions from the topic

.

Fernando, fantastic detective work, I was hoping to find a colored version of the gold helmet but had no luck, can you image how people who saw this helmet in person wanted to copy it and wear their own version, just in copper or brass etc and not gold.

Quote:

Don Jozef Thomas Ximenes da Silva, Raja van Sikka "The Raja of Silkka" (Indonesia) circa 1940, wearing a European style gold helmet, originally presented along with other valuable items including 70 ivory elephant tusks,by Portugal to the Raja Dom Alesu Ximines da Silva in the 1600s, the gifts became a symbol of authority and helped provided wealth and prestige to the royal family. The royal family changed their name to Da Silva as a show of allegiance with the Portuguese.

Spunjer · 12th October 2014, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

Thanks Oliver, the images you and other forum members posted made me decide to finally put all of the images I have collected from this region in one place. I have done this with armor and weapons from other regions and it has proven to be a valuable research tool, having a pool of images to look at in one place allows you to see similarities and differences much easier.

Here is a very interesting armor and helmet. It is described as being from the Philippines. The armor is in the form of a cuirass, it and the helmet are made from from carabao horn (Philippine water buffalo). Both items appear to be European inspired. It is in the National Museum of Anthropology, Spain.

Possibly the predecessor of the later mail and plate armor and brass helmet or just another variation?

it appears that this particular style is indeed the predecessor of the mail and plate version. there's a similar one i've seen, but it was made out of carabao hide. is that yours? older still is the one on post #27, which is a facsimile of the old conquistador's cuirass.

Oliver Pinchot · 20th October 2014, 07:00 PM

Terrific contributions, Fernando and estcrh.
I've been reading Kroeber and Krieger on arms production among the Muslim peoples of the Philippines. Both wrote in the first quarter of the 20th century and have distinct perspectives. Kreiger is far more in-depth and provides as much provenance as possible. Both he and Kroeber report that armor was less commonly used in conflicts of the latter 19th-early 20th century. This may suggest that the helmets and coats under discussion date decades earlier. In the process of examining the few helmets available to me, I am finding that there is a distinct difference in weight, which may bear upon their relative age. Forum members that are lucky enough to own Moro helmets, it would really help the direction of this research if you can post an image and weight.

estcrh · 21st October 2014, 04:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

Terrific contributions, Fernando and estcrh.
I've been reading Kroeber and Krieger on arms production among the Muslim peoples of the Philippines. Both wrote in the first quarter of the 20th century and have distinct perspectives. Kreiger is far more in-depth and provides as much provenance as possible. Both he and Kroeber report that armor was less commonly used in conflicts of the latter 19th-early 20th century. This may suggest that the helmets and coats under discussion date decades earlier. In the process of examining the few helmets available to me, I am finding that there is a distinct difference in weight, which may bear upon their relative age. Forum members that are lucky enough to own Moro helmets, it would really help the direction of this research if you can post an image and weight.

Oliver, glad to be able to add something to this interesting subject, I have added a couple more images to the Pinterest collection. I do know of one Moro helmet which is currently for sale, if you send me a pm I can give the owners info to you, they may be willing to give you a weight.

Battara · 7th November 2014, 07:27 PM

Here is another Moro helmet with armor context. It comes from a Czernys auction back in April 2, 2011:

estcrh · 8th November 2014, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Here is another Moro helmet with armor context. It comes from a Czernys auction back in April 2, 2011:

Check this out, I think it is the same one.

Quote:

Portuguese or Spanish-Style Iron Helmet
The Philippines or Eastern Indonesia
17th-18th century

length: 40.5cm, height: 28cm, weight: 1,126g

Spanish or Portuguese-style morion helmets made locally in Asia are known artifacts but they are rare. All known examples seem to be of brass. But this
example is of iron, so is all the rarer.

It is unclear where in Asia such helmets were manufactured. Possibilities include the Philippines under the Spanish or perhaps Eastern Indonesia or Macau
under the Portuguese. They seem to have become prized trade, presentation and heirloom items among local rulers, particularly in Eastern Indonesia. The
Raja of Sikka on the island of Fores in Eastern Indonesia adopted one such helmet as part of regency's regalia and there are images of the Raja wearing his
regalia including the helmet. Flores had a long association with Portuguese settlers some of whom seem to have settled there in the wake of the fall of the
Portuguese enclave in Malacca in 1641. The royal family of Sikka had adopted the Portuguese name of da Silva as early as the sixteenth century. The family
continued in power until the 1950s (Hamilton, 1994, p. 149).

The splendid example here has a superb sculptural quality. The point of the helmet ends with a flowing twist away from the face of the wearer. The shape
might be drawn from that of a mango, and appears to be more of a localised feature than many extant examples that have a more conventional European form.

It has a wide brim, upturned and pointed at both ends. The brim is attached to the rest of the helmet by means of rivets all the way round the heads of which
are engraved with gadroons, and the bit where the brim and helmet join is hidden by a decorative rope-twist wire.

There is no gadrooning or decoration to the dome of the helmet - it is sheer and unadorned, reinforcing the helmet's overall sculptural beauty.

The helmet is in very fine condition without dents, cracks, holes or restoration. It is covered with a dark, encrusted patina.

References:
Hamilton, R. (ed.), Gift of the Cotton Maiden: Textiles of Flores and the Solor Islands, Fowler Museum of Cultural History, UCLA, 1994.
van Zonneveld, A., Traditional Weapons of the Indonesian Archipelago, C. Zwartenkot Art Books, 2001.

Provenance: private UK collection

http://www.michaelbackmanltd.com/1903.html

kino · 6th December 2014, 07:16 PM

Does anyone have dimensions of a Moro helmet for comparison.
I have this one and it's seems small, it make me wonder if it were made for a child or a small adult.
The inside dimensions are 8x7".
Thanks.

Oliver Pinchot · 6th December 2014, 07:34 PM

A very similar, though not as elaborate, example of the Type 2 type is pictured here, Albert.

http://www.auctionflex.com/showlot.a...enum=1&lang=En

The height is very close to yours.
I like the Chinese coin motifs on either side.

kino · 7th December 2014, 05:51 AM

Thank you , Oliver. It's slightly smaller than my Sulawesi helmet.

Oliver Pinchot · 7th December 2014, 06:12 AM

I think that's because they wore a substantial head-cloth of some kind underneath the Sulawesi helmets. I haven't found any evidence of this practice among the Moros, though.

Spunjer · 8th December 2014, 05:01 AM

i believe the Moros used their putong (headress) as liners for the helmet. half an hour wearing that heavy brass helmet gave me a headache...

Oliver Pinchot · 8th December 2014, 06:33 AM

That makes sense, Ron. But I think that, in order to demonstrate your argument, we're going to need a pic of you modeling it. With putong, of course ;0)

kino · 8th December 2014, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

That makes sense, Ron. But I think that, in order to demonstrate your argument, we're going to need a pic of you modeling it. With putong, of course ;0)

I second that.
Spunjer, make sure you wear your Designer bahag

Spunjer · 9th December 2014, 05:06 AM

:grin: the helmet is in the shop at the moment...

anyway, i'm kinda wondering if there are differences in the armors and helmets among the different tribes? i reckon we can go by the ukkil if that particular armor and/or helmet are embellished with such. but style-wise. would there be any differences? the picture i posted is that of a Suluanon, most likely a Tausug. higher up are two Mindanaoans. hard to tell if they are Maguindanao or Maranao..

btw, Kino, my helmet is about the same size as yours. i'm incline to say that what yours and mine are boys' helmets, considering the putong liner...

28th September 2014, 10:06 PM	#32
estcrh Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: USA Posts: 1,497	Here are a couple more images. Attached Images Last edited by estcrh; 28th September 2014 at 10:25 PM.

29th September 2014, 09:15 AM	#35
Sentrad Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 20	Two more helmets I am really very glad, that Oliver opened this thread to get more information about the armour of the Southern Philippines / Northern Indonesian region. As far as I know, both Portuguese and Spaniards introduced helmets of the Comb-Morion and Morion-Cabasset types made of steel and of bronze. Still today similar local made helmets are in use during festivities in the Bangsamoro region, the Northern Moluccas and Northern parts of Sulawesi, made out of copper alloys. Most of them are of brass, which is cheaper, but not as hard as bronze. Brass helmets are normally not as old as bronze helmets. Originally Comb-Morions out of the Bangsamoro region had ear flaps, but nearly all I saw missed them or had later made replacements and I believe without having the helmet of the above mentioned eBay auction in hand, it is difficult decide wether the ear flaps are original or not. As far as I remember the Moro helmets in the Naval Museum and the Museo Nacional de Antropologia in Madrid are complete pieces with ear flaps and cheek pieces, perhaps one of our Spanish members could check how they look like? Here are my helmets: A Comb-Morion, greenish-brownish patinated bronze, with one plume holder; a crack int the peak guard; ear flaps are missing, and a Morion-Cabasset, brownish patinated bronze, three plume holders, some holes in the corpus (corrosion? faults of the casting?). (I did not make metallographical analyses, to check the components of the alloy.) Udo Attached Images

29th September 2014, 01:58 PM	#36
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	By the way I could (and should) have mentioned that the paper i took the pictures from, in my post#30, were found HERE. , Last edited by fernando; 29th September 2014 at 01:59 PM.

29th September 2014, 07:26 PM	#37
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 457	Thanks Udo, these are great contributions. Your Moro helmet is of the form I'm calling type 2, as noted above. Can we see images of the interior, please? The Sulawesi helmet is beautifully wrought and embossed. As a group, these tend to be very uniform in their construction and decoration. I've noticed that in older references, this type is usually ascribed to European craftsmen. But after examining several in hand, I find nothing to support this. There is a good thread on these helmets here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ulawesi+helmet The last entry by VVV is especially informative and just above that, Kino provided a nice photo of the Sultan of Celebes and his bodyguard, all of whom are wearing them. By contrast, Sulwesi helmets are wrought of sheet, and so are far lighter than their Moro counterparts. It's well known that the Moros fought in armor; is there any data that indicates these helmets were worn in battle in the Moluccas and Sulawesi? Last edited by Oliver Pinchot; 30th September 2014 at 12:12 AM.

1st October 2014, 04:52 PM	#39
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 457	Salaam ya karim. La shakr al wajib! My focus has always been the Middle East and Central Asia. It's a pleasure to explore this part of the Dar al Islam with our forum colleagues. Last edited by Oliver Pinchot; 1st October 2014 at 05:04 PM.

28th September 2014, 05:12 PM	#31
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 457	Thanks, Fernando. The images make a useful record of the European antecedents of this type of Moro helmet. And as you say, the engravings serve to remind us that a great deal of pride was associated with military skills and accoutrements, a concept which was central to every culture that used them. For this reason, the embellishment of arms and armor, to whatever degree, was likewise universal. There are some rare insights to be had from cultures like the Moro groups, which produced, or at least used, armor into the 20th century, particularly against (and alongside) repeating firearms. Members with more specific knowledge than what has been discussed above, or who at least have further examples of Moro helmets or armor, kindly chime in.

29th September 2014, 03:57 AM	#33
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	All of these great examples!

29th September 2014, 05:41 AM	#34
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 457	They really are, thanks estcrh. The postcard is helpful, too. Generally then, there are several forms of Moro helmet. At least one is modeled on a fully-developed form of burgonet from the second half of the 16th century, characterized by a pronounced peak, comb and neckguard. Cheekplates, the other key characteristic of the prototype burgonet, are likewise present but substantially minimized in the Moro adaptation. This type of Moro helmet does not appear to be influenced at all by the morion (although sheet brass helmets made in Sulawesi in the 17-19th century duplicate them with a remarkable degree of detail.) The original helmet I posted also has what appears to be some Neoclassical influence... or not. It could be that its simple, elegant, sweeping lines were adopted from parade helmets produced in Italy during the same era as the burgonet, which were popular among the Spanish nobility (given the popularity of Italian armor throughout the Mediterranean in this period, and the Aragonese Kingdom of Naples.) But it could as likely be a case of parallel development, in which Moro smiths simply refined and streamlined the design for their own purposes (lighter weight, less raw material and ease of manufacture, for example.) Thus, what emerges from this very rudimentary examination is a tendency toward two subtypes of burgonet-style helmet produced by Moro smiths: 1) which more closely follows the lines of its European prototype, and tends to be embellished with a greater amount of pierced work and 2) a seemingly lighter, simpler form which has little or no pierced decoration I hope these very tentative conclusions will stimulate further discussion and discovery.

1st October 2014, 07:18 PM	#41
estcrh Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: USA Posts: 1,497	Here is a link to a Pinterest site with a few more helmet and armor pictures, there are some newly edited pictures of armor details that have not been seen before. http://www.pinterest.com/worldantiqu...d-surrounding/ Attached Images

1st October 2014, 08:49 PM	#42
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 457	Forum members, estchr has done us all a great service here in posting numerous images of Moro and Indonesian armor on Pinterest. Many of these appear to be unpublished. It seems he has also annotated the images for us; thank you, estchr! I'm sure all that work was quite time consuming. I just received this image of a Moro helmet which is of the first type, from a collector who says it weights around 4 lbs and isn't bad to wear for short periods (I didn't want to ask....) Attached Images

1st October 2014, 11:46 PM	#43
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Some great examples folks and research, thank you all!

20th October 2014, 07:00 PM	#49
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 457	Terrific contributions, Fernando and estcrh. I've been reading Kroeber and Krieger on arms production among the Muslim peoples of the Philippines. Both wrote in the first quarter of the 20th century and have distinct perspectives. Kreiger is far more in-depth and provides as much provenance as possible. Both he and Kroeber report that armor was less commonly used in conflicts of the latter 19th-early 20th century. This may suggest that the helmets and coats under discussion date decades earlier. In the process of examining the few helmets available to me, I am finding that there is a distinct difference in weight, which may bear upon their relative age. Forum members that are lucky enough to own Moro helmets, it would really help the direction of this research if you can post an image and weight.

7th November 2014, 07:27 PM	#51
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Here is another Moro helmet with armor context. It comes from a Czernys auction back in April 2, 2011: Attached Images

6th December 2014, 07:16 PM	#53
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,005	Does anyone have dimensions of a Moro helmet for comparison. I have this one and it's seems small, it make me wonder if it were made for a child or a small adult. The inside dimensions are 8x7". Thanks. Attached Images

6th December 2014, 07:34 PM	#54
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 457	A very similar, though not as elaborate, example of the Type 2 type is pictured here, Albert. http://www.auctionflex.com/showlot.a...enum=1&lang=En The height is very close to yours. I like the Chinese coin motifs on either side.

7th December 2014, 05:51 AM	#55
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,005	Thank you , Oliver. It's slightly smaller than my Sulawesi helmet.

7th December 2014, 06:12 AM	#56
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 457	I think that's because they wore a substantial head-cloth of some kind underneath the Sulawesi helmets. I haven't found any evidence of this practice among the Moros, though.

8th December 2014, 05:01 AM	#57
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	i believe the Moros used their putong (headress) as liners for the helmet. half an hour wearing that heavy brass helmet gave me a headache... Attached Images

8th December 2014, 06:33 AM	#58
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 457	That makes sense, Ron. But I think that, in order to demonstrate your argument, we're going to need a pic of you modeling it. With putong, of course ;0)

9th December 2014, 05:06 AM	#60
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	:grin: the helmet is in the shop at the moment... anyway, i'm kinda wondering if there are differences in the armors and helmets among the different tribes? i reckon we can go by the ukkil if that particular armor and/or helmet are embellished with such. but style-wise. would there be any differences? the picture i posted is that of a Suluanon, most likely a Tausug. higher up are two Mindanaoans. hard to tell if they are Maguindanao or Maranao.. btw, Kino, my helmet is about the same size as yours. i'm incline to say that what yours and mine are boys' helmets, considering the putong liner...