Sword from the lesser Sunda islands (Timor?)

Sentrad · 20th September 2014, 03:46 PM

Pics from the other side of Alor sword #2. The bottom of the shoe of this sword shows some cracks,perhaps from putting it on the ground during ceremonies?

Udo

ausjulius · 28th September 2014, 09:55 PM

nice example to see. youd think they woudl actually be more information on these but even among Portuguese and dutch collectors theyer obscure.. or even info on the different timorese ethic styles and different tools ect.

historically timor was a centre of blade making in this area of the archipelago
.. and this style has been transported to papua. the back of the tip of the native papuan made knives is sharp though and their larger blades also have worked spines and punch work which the timorese do not.. ..
but apparently the maccassans would buy the blades in timor and then sell them again in the areas where they traded with the west part of papua.. introducing steel working .. and this same pointy blade..

kai · 30th September 2014, 09:15 AM

Hello ausjulius,

Quote:

youd think they woudl actually be more information on these but even among Portuguese and dutch collectors theyer obscure.. or even info on the different timorese ethic styles and different tools ect.

Actually, there is quite a bit to be found in old, antique books, etc. Specializing in these swords and doing more research would be great IMHO!

Also, while genuine antique pieces have never been common, these swords are represented in collections (private as well as musea). Quite a few seem to be in "tribal art" collections and also most weapon collectors will only have one example of the "type" from Nusantara timur rather than focusing on them. I'd suggest to join forces and contribute to a better understanding - posting and discussing any extant examples in this forum would be a first step which might later be follwed up upon by a dedicated group of enthusiasts.

Quote:

historically timor was a centre of blade making in this area of the archipelago
.. and this style has been transported to papua. the back of the tip of the native papuan made knives is sharp though and their larger blades also have worked spines and punch work which the timorese do not.. ..
but apparently the maccassans would buy the blades in timor and then sell them again in the areas where they traded with the west part of papua.. introducing steel working .. and this same pointy blade..

I'm not sure I'm following you - could you post examples of what you refer to, please?

Regards,
Kai

kai · 30th September 2014, 09:21 AM

Hello Udo,

Sorry for the delay - I'll be back with some more info soon, hopefully.

Thanks a lot for the great close-ups - keep up the good work! BTW, do you have any other examples from the larger Timor region in your collection?

Regards,
Kai

kai · 2nd October 2014, 11:18 PM

<quote>
On item #2, posted by Udo (aka Sentrad) on Sept. 11th, 2014:

I am glad with the detailed photographs. Many, many details, I love it. As far I can see from these photographs (preferable one should feel it in the hand and even smell the natural origin of the materials!) it looks as it is genuine and a weapon with some age. But there are a few differences with what may be called 'the normal Har from Alor island'.

Hilt: as far I can see, this is made of wood. Which is strange. I know only two other made of wood. The decoration running along the 'forehead' differs slightly and is a bit more crudely made than what you would expect from a professional carver. Also the 'eye' is different: the usual form is a circle with a slightly bulbous centre (often covered with a disc made from tin or lead) and not a flat disc. Concerning the metal ferrule at the base of the hilt: normally it is a ring of horn around the base to prevent cracking. Aside from these two examples, I have not seen any metal ferrule on typical Alor sword hilts. This is sometimes seen in Wetar swords, not common though.

Blade: Mostly this is a straight one and more slender, a 'standard' import from Solor. Or, more rare, import from Southern Sulawesi (Rumbiah) with its typical rows of twistcore 'pamor'. These imported blades are often 'reshaped' by filing until obtaining the shape that the Alor people thought was their own tradition (passed on by their ancestors). I cannot see wether there is a brass peg inlaid along the back of the blade where it slopes down towards the tip. Most of the time (nine out of ten) it is present.

Sheath: The wood used here I recognize the same as on one of my swords from Wetar (Opi), also the way of patination on the rattan, now flaked, I found on sheaths of Wetar swords. As already said in my notes before on April 1st, 2010, the disc shaped finial or 'foot' of the sheath of item #1 (and of #2, too!) is weird and unique. It is even more curious to see TWO of these popping up in the same collection!

Provisional conservative conclusion: Because of the fact there are two pieces which have same features (wooden hilt with metal base, just a flat circle as 'eye', not 'standard' blades and rounded foot) and who differ from the 'normal' known swords from Alor, but who have, as far as can be seen from photographs, certain age and show use, it is possible this is a rather rare subspecies of the commonly known Har. That this is originating from Alor rather than from Wetar can be inferred from the carvings on both hilts as well as the sheath of item #1. As far as I know, Wetar Opi have plain hilts with no decoration nor eye, and have undecorated, somewhat wider scabbards.

As explained in my former notes the decoration of the 'wrongka' of item #1 should be from the centre of the island. It is a riddle which I do not have any solution for yet.

I may conclude this is an Alor sword which shows some Wetar influences. Import, immigration, marriage, trade, who knows?

Having said this: This makes collecting Indonesian weaponry so interesting. If you, as a collector, want to find everything easily in a book, you better collect stamps.

Karel Sirag
<unquote>

Sajen · 3rd October 2014, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

<quote>
Having said this: This makes collecting Indonesian weaponry so interesting. If you, as a collector, want to find everything easily in a book, you better collect stamps.

Karel Sirag
<unquote>

Very true!

Sajen · 3rd October 2014, 01:49 PM

I still have a Rugi/Har which I get once from my friend who is a "orang" Alor. He told me that this sword is from his father. This sword has a wooden hilt with iron ferrule (hidden by the red cloth), the carving is also a little bit crude, blade isn't laminated and the goats hair was replaced some years ago by the owner. He coming from the South of Alor, village Musape. The sword is 63,5 cm long, no scabbard. Blade is 4,4 mm thick at the base.

Sajen · 3rd October 2014, 01:57 PM

Maybe Udo can show some pictures from the smaller sword shown in post #8, this sword I've sold him years ago and coming from the same source.

Sajen · 3rd October 2014, 04:07 PM

Here two pictures from Alor warriors I just found by google.

2nd October 2014, 11:18 PM	#5
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,252	comment from Karel Sirag <quote> On item #2, posted by Udo (aka Sentrad) on Sept. 11th, 2014: I am glad with the detailed photographs. Many, many details, I love it. As far I can see from these photographs (preferable one should feel it in the hand and even smell the natural origin of the materials!) it looks as it is genuine and a weapon with some age. But there are a few differences with what may be called 'the normal Har from Alor island'. Hilt: as far I can see, this is made of wood. Which is strange. I know only two other made of wood. The decoration running along the 'forehead' differs slightly and is a bit more crudely made than what you would expect from a professional carver. Also the 'eye' is different: the usual form is a circle with a slightly bulbous centre (often covered with a disc made from tin or lead) and not a flat disc. Concerning the metal ferrule at the base of the hilt: normally it is a ring of horn around the base to prevent cracking. Aside from these two examples, I have not seen any metal ferrule on typical Alor sword hilts. This is sometimes seen in Wetar swords, not common though. Blade: Mostly this is a straight one and more slender, a 'standard' import from Solor. Or, more rare, import from Southern Sulawesi (Rumbiah) with its typical rows of twistcore 'pamor'. These imported blades are often 'reshaped' by filing until obtaining the shape that the Alor people thought was their own tradition (passed on by their ancestors). I cannot see wether there is a brass peg inlaid along the back of the blade where it slopes down towards the tip. Most of the time (nine out of ten) it is present. Sheath: The wood used here I recognize the same as on one of my swords from Wetar (Opi), also the way of patination on the rattan, now flaked, I found on sheaths of Wetar swords. As already said in my notes before on April 1st, 2010, the disc shaped finial or 'foot' of the sheath of item #1 (and of #2, too!) is weird and unique. It is even more curious to see TWO of these popping up in the same collection! Provisional conservative conclusion: Because of the fact there are two pieces which have same features (wooden hilt with metal base, just a flat circle as 'eye', not 'standard' blades and rounded foot) and who differ from the 'normal' known swords from Alor, but who have, as far as can be seen from photographs, certain age and show use, it is possible this is a rather rare subspecies of the commonly known Har. That this is originating from Alor rather than from Wetar can be inferred from the carvings on both hilts as well as the sheath of item #1. As far as I know, Wetar Opi have plain hilts with no decoration nor eye, and have undecorated, somewhat wider scabbards. As explained in my former notes the decoration of the 'wrongka' of item #1 should be from the centre of the island. It is a riddle which I do not have any solution for yet. I may conclude this is an Alor sword which shows some Wetar influences. Import, immigration, marriage, trade, who knows? Having said this: This makes collecting Indonesian weaponry so interesting. If you, as a collector, want to find everything easily in a book, you better collect stamps. Karel Sirag <unquote>

3rd October 2014, 01:49 PM	#7
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,733	I still have a Rugi/Har which I get once from my friend who is a "orang" Alor. He told me that this sword is from his father. This sword has a wooden hilt with iron ferrule (hidden by the red cloth), the carving is also a little bit crude, blade isn't laminated and the goats hair was replaced some years ago by the owner. He coming from the South of Alor, village Musape. The sword is 63,5 cm long, no scabbard. Blade is 4,4 mm thick at the base. Attached Images Last edited by Sajen; 3rd October 2014 at 02:02 PM.

3rd October 2014, 04:07 PM	#9
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,733	Here two pictures from Alor warriors I just found by google. Attached Images

20th September 2014, 03:46 PM	#1
Sentrad Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 20	Close up pics continued Pics from the other side of Alor sword #2. The bottom of the shoe of this sword shows some cracks,perhaps from putting it on the ground during ceremonies? Udo Attached Images

28th September 2014, 09:55 PM	#2
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 415	nice example to see. youd think they woudl actually be more information on these but even among Portuguese and dutch collectors theyer obscure.. or even info on the different timorese ethic styles and different tools ect. historically timor was a centre of blade making in this area of the archipelago .. and this style has been transported to papua. the back of the tip of the native papuan made knives is sharp though and their larger blades also have worked spines and punch work which the timorese do not.. .. but apparently the maccassans would buy the blades in timor and then sell them again in the areas where they traded with the west part of papua.. introducing steel working .. and this same pointy blade..

30th September 2014, 09:21 AM	#4
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,252	Hello Udo, Sorry for the delay - I'll be back with some more info soon, hopefully. Thanks a lot for the great close-ups - keep up the good work! BTW, do you have any other examples from the larger Timor region in your collection? Regards, Kai

3rd October 2014, 01:57 PM	#8
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,733	Maybe Udo can show some pictures from the smaller sword shown in post #8, this sword I've sold him years ago and coming from the same source.