Chinese (or other country) sai/parrying weapon

kai · 15th September 2014, 10:13 PM

Seems like a sturdy, genuine piece.

The pommel looks Chinese to me.

Regards,
Kai

Aleksey · 15th September 2014, 10:28 PM

Chinese bijiacha (literally it means the "rack for the bruch").

Could be paired or used in single veriant. Some specimens mave the barrel drilled in the central prong.

I think it is the second half of XIX century as the most part of alike items dated not earlier than XIX century by iconography and pieces with dates engraved (or indicated by any other method) and only modern "kungfu movie's legends" attributed them as really ancient pieces of weapon.

The hilt could be wrapped initially with the hemp cord or a band of fabric. I saw a lot with red band wrapping, all old, torn and worn. THis colour is the national color of Chinese so they liked to use it for weapon.

Timo Nieminen · 16th September 2014, 12:41 AM

Probably Chinese. These were also used in Indonesia, Okinawa, and elsewhere. Indonesian ones have pommels similar to Chinese ones, so far as I have seen.

They were used as police truncheons (like jutte/jitte in Japan), not just as martial arts weapons.

Sai in English, which is from the Japanese, from Chinese chai. The character 釵 also means "hairpin".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sai_(weapon)

Aleksey · 16th September 2014, 08:46 AM

This one is Chinese for sure.

Regarding the name - bijiacha in Chinese, no correspondence to Japanese in spite of the hyerogliphic as they used another tradition - some words in Chinese are written by different hyerogliphs then in Japanese and visa versa.

Regarding the police weapon - not for China. For Japan - it is OK.

The origin of the weapon could be from trishula trident in Buddhist iconocgarphy but this point is not for sure - only assumption.

estcrh · 16th September 2014, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aleksey

This one is Chinese for sure.

Regarding the name - bijiacha in Chinese, no correspondence to Japanese in spite of the hyerogliphic as they used another tradition - some words in Chinese are written by different hyerogliphs then in Japanese and visa versa.

Regarding the police weapon - not for China. For Japan - it is OK.

The origin of the weapon could be from trishula trident in Buddhist iconocgarphy but this point is not for sure - only assumption.

Aleksey, were are you getting this information from, if you search for the word "bijiacha" you do not find one image or mention of a sai, if you search for "Chinese sai you will not find much either, if you search for "Okinawan sai" you will find many similar looking sai to the one being discussed.

Here is a section from "Taiho-Jutsu: Law and Order in the Age of the Samurai" by Don Cunningham which discusses sai in China and Okinawa as well as some other Chinese iron bar weapons.

I have posted an image of what was said to be a Chinese sai, it is quite long and pointed.

ausjulius · 28th September 2014, 10:10 PM

it is indeed anodd weapon.. its hard to say the origin of them if they dont have a grip wrapping any more..

the malay style with have a spiraling bount cord that makes it easy to distinguish..
also malay ones almost always have some for of point as it is a weapon after all.
but in china and japan laws forbidding general public from having pointy things turn many of these into a steel baton..

malay name is trisula.. which lets you know its origins by its indo-aryan name .. being a trident i would imagine it was originally some scaled down version of the fork like Indian spears that have spread through asia with indian religion.

many of the malay trisula have indeed chinese multifaced pommels.. and ive seen japanese ones like it too.

the sai and the tonfa batons both have their origins in malay martial arts.(the tonfa baton is also present in burma and thailand.. as is the trisula.. although very uncommon so again the real origin of both may be indian martial arts.. )
.
we must remember that 1200 years ago the malay kingdoms were powerful states controlling the sea beween east asia and india and although they are long forgotten today at one time they were naval super powers of the region, - controling the seas of south east asia.. so lots of these things spread very rapidly and were ingested locally.

Neil · 2nd October 2014, 07:05 AM

In my opinion this is most likely a Chinese example. Its construction and form is quite consistent with many examples I have seen and handled, many purchased directly from China.

estcrh · 2nd October 2014, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil

In my opinion this is most likely a Chinese example. Its construction and form is quite consistent with many examples I have seen and handled, many purchased directly from China.

Do you have any pictures of some of the ones purchased from China so we can compare, as far as I know the Chinese do not allow export of their antique weapons, they do export vast amounts of fakes, some quite good. On the other hand I have seen several antique sai that originated from Japan, which makes sense since Okinawa was part of Japan for several hundred years. I am not saying that it is impossible that the Chinese did not make and use sai of this exact type, its just that I have so far not seen any evidence that they did, the antique sai that I have seen that were labeled as Chinese looked quite different. Here is another sai that originated in Japan, again quite similar to the one being discussed.

15th September 2014, 10:13 PM	#1
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Seems like a sturdy, genuine piece. The pommel looks Chinese to me. Regards, Kai

15th September 2014, 10:28 PM	#2
Aleksey Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 15	Chinese bijiacha (literally it means the "rack for the bruch"). Could be paired or used in single veriant. Some specimens mave the barrel drilled in the central prong. I think it is the second half of XIX century as the most part of alike items dated not earlier than XIX century by iconography and pieces with dates engraved (or indicated by any other method) and only modern "kungfu movie's legends" attributed them as really ancient pieces of weapon. The hilt could be wrapped initially with the hemp cord or a band of fabric. I saw a lot with red band wrapping, all old, torn and worn. THis colour is the national color of Chinese so they liked to use it for weapon.

16th September 2014, 12:41 AM	#3
Timo Nieminen Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 422	Probably Chinese. These were also used in Indonesia, Okinawa, and elsewhere. Indonesian ones have pommels similar to Chinese ones, so far as I have seen. They were used as police truncheons (like jutte/jitte in Japan), not just as martial arts weapons. Sai in English, which is from the Japanese, from Chinese chai. The character 釵 also means "hairpin". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sai_(weapon)

16th September 2014, 08:46 AM	#4
Aleksey Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 15	This one is Chinese for sure. Regarding the name - bijiacha in Chinese, no correspondence to Japanese in spite of the hyerogliphic as they used another tradition - some words in Chinese are written by different hyerogliphs then in Japanese and visa versa. Regarding the police weapon - not for China. For Japan - it is OK. The origin of the weapon could be from trishula trident in Buddhist iconocgarphy but this point is not for sure - only assumption.

28th September 2014, 10:10 PM	#6
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 422	it is indeed anodd weapon.. its hard to say the origin of them if they dont have a grip wrapping any more.. the malay style with have a spiraling bount cord that makes it easy to distinguish.. also malay ones almost always have some for of point as it is a weapon after all. but in china and japan laws forbidding general public from having pointy things turn many of these into a steel baton.. malay name is trisula.. which lets you know its origins by its indo-aryan name .. being a trident i would imagine it was originally some scaled down version of the fork like Indian spears that have spread through asia with indian religion. many of the malay trisula have indeed chinese multifaced pommels.. and ive seen japanese ones like it too. the sai and the tonfa batons both have their origins in malay martial arts.(the tonfa baton is also present in burma and thailand.. as is the trisula.. although very uncommon so again the real origin of both may be indian martial arts.. ) . we must remember that 1200 years ago the malay kingdoms were powerful states controlling the sea beween east asia and india and although they are long forgotten today at one time they were naval super powers of the region, - controling the seas of south east asia.. so lots of these things spread very rapidly and were ingested locally.

2nd October 2014, 07:05 AM	#7
Neil Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 109	In my opinion this is most likely a Chinese example. Its construction and form is quite consistent with many examples I have seen and handled, many purchased directly from China.