Quality of edged weapons (101)?

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, I couldn't agree more Spiral:- if your old Elwell does what you want it to do, and does it well, of course you should continue to use it.

This has been exactly what we've been talking about. In fact, I'd guess that the old Elwell probably splits blocks of firewood better than a modern so-called "block-splitter". I've used these things and in my book they're bloody atrocious. I'd sooner use a hammer and wedge than a modern block splitter.

I believe that your old Elwell is as it came from the factory, and that any use it has had during its life was as a GP axe. If it had been used as a felling axe any self-respecting professional using it for this would have ground and sharpened it for this purpose. This axe has never been ground and sharpened as a felling axe for use on softwoods, so anybody trying to use it day in and day out for that job would have had a very hard row to hoe.


I believe without question that this design was very popular as a felling axe design in England, but design is one thing, grind is another. The factory produces the design, the user does the grind.

The same thing applies with the three axes I posted a pic of:- the Plumb came from the factory with GP grind, but the owner prior to my uncle re-ground it for ease of use on green eucalypt timber. The Keesteel came from the factory with a GP grind, and it has never been reground, if it were to be reground it would come up as a very fine axe.The Kelly came from the factory with a GP design and GP grind, this axe can never be anything else but a GP axe.

Those custom makers of axes, that I put the links in for, produce exceptionally fine axes, and they offer a number of grinds straight from the factory that will suit the timber that the axe is to be used on, this saves the buyer a lot of time.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I believe that your old Elwell is as it came from the factory, and that any use it has had during its life was as a GP axe. If it had been used as a felling axe any self-respecting professional using it for this would have ground and sharpened it for this purpose. This axe has never been ground and sharpened as a felling axe for use on softwoods, so anybody trying to use it day in and day out for that job would have had a very hard row to hoe.
.

Yes it seemed virtually unused when I found it a couple of decades ago.

Ive never ground it.

So your deduction is probably correct!

Spiral

[A. G. Maisey]

Driftwould, it appears that you understood the message I was attempting to convey, this being so I'd guess that you have probably more than a little bit study in front of you. This knowledge game tends to become easier if one can narrow focus.

In respect of fit and finish.

Perhaps the best way to understand these two things, as they apply to weaponry, is to look at a lot of examples of modern custom knifemakers work.

The best of these blokes are absolute fanatics on fit and finish.

I would not expect to see the same standard, or even anything close, when it comes to ethnic weaponry, but having seen the best that can be done you then have a yardstick to use against whatever else you might be looking at.

I feel that the two related concepts of fit and finish apply to probably most handmade objects, but within any field the interpretation will be different, for example fit and finish certainly apply to a bespoke suit, but the expert on tailoring excellence is not really equipped to judge a bespoke English longbow, and of course the opposite also applies.

So this gets back to comments that others have made, and that boil down to really only one thing:- experience. I don't know of any short cuts, but if you spend your available learning time by directing it towards the areas of greatest return you might be able to reduce the total time spent.

Fit and finish on sharp pointy things? Visit some custom knife shows.

[driftwould]

Well, since we're deep into this, here are some pictures of my latest acquisitions from Uzbekistan. Any thoughts on the quality, and how close or far from my goal I am? Unfortunately, some of them only had some pretty horrible sheathes (plastic?!) available, but what else could I do?

[A. G. Maisey]

I cannot give any opinion on this, because I do not know what is considered to be acceptable quality where these were made, however, if we compare this work to modern custom knife work --- which would be a patently ridiculous thing to do --- the fit and finish is very, very ordinary.

Look at the very best first, then get experience in the specific field.

[driftwould]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I cannot give any opinion on this, because I do not know what is considered to be acceptable quality where these were made, however, if we compare this work to modern custom knife work --- which would be a patently ridiculous thing to do --- the fit and finish is very, very ordinary.

Look at the very best first, then get experience in the specific field.

Okay, that's exactly what I was trying to figure out, and I was worried that it might be something like you said. I'll definitely be looking for opportunities to do what you said about seeing the very best. In the meantime, what exactly are you looking at in terms of fit and finish on these?

[A. G. Maisey]

Drfiftwould, it has been brought to my attention that I have not answered your question satisfactorily, and you yourself have pursued a further clarification of my inadequate answer. Please accept my apologies. Let me try again.

Any fabricated item is made of a number of pieces, and often of a number of different materials, materials that can differ in nature, character, colour, texture, and so on.

In the case of a knife, or any other type of edged weapon, these pieces should be brought together so that the places where they meet, that is, their joining edges and/or surfaces, come together as closely as possible. All joints should ideally be a part of a circle or a part of a straight line. The only reason that one should be able to detect the joint is because of the different nature of the materials, not because the actual joint itself can be seen. This is what is meant by fit.

All materials used in the fabrication of a knife or other edged weapon do not usually come in the form required for construction of that knife or weapon, the material needs to be shaped and reduced in size so that it fulfills the purpose for which it is intended, once shaped it needs to be smoothed and often polished. These processes of shaping, smoothing, polishing require that the surface of the material be subjected to cutting, grinding, moulding, and abrasive processes. In the completed knife or other edged weapon traces of the processes used to produce the finished product should not be visible.

What I have outlined is a description of perfection, and this is very seldom achieved, however, the closer to perfection an item comes, the better is the fit and finish.

I was a member of the Australian Knifemakers Guild for a number of years, and I displayed my work at a number of knife shows. The fit and finish that I could achieve in a complete knife was not even remotely close to the fit and finish that was achieved by many other makers. The principal reason for this was that I used only very primitive hand tools, my ethic was that I attempted to make in the ways that were available to artisans prior to the coming of the Modern Age.

At a knife show the buyers of custom and handmade knives carry jewellers loupes and magnifying glasses, and they examine the work of the makers very closely before they part with the purchase price. It is never only a matter of the overall appearance of a knife, nor of design, it is a matter of seeking total perfection in the construction of the knife, the type of perfection that is found in finely crafted jewellery.

Clearly we cannot apply these same standards to the construction of ethnic weaponry, but the closer we get to these standards, the better is the fit and finish of the item under consideration.

[spiral]

Savage.. but true & correct!

Also the butterscotch horn hilt was clearly cracked while still on the animal, but was still used for the hilt.

So despite good colour clearly a defective & imperfect material, so presumably not top quality.

spiral

[driftwould]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Drfiftwould, it has been brought to my attention that I have not answered your question satisfactorily, and you yourself have pursued a further clarification of my inadequate answer. Please accept my apologies. Let me try again.

Any fabricated item is made of a number of pieces, and often of a number of different materials, materials that can differ in nature, character, colour, texture, and so on.

In the case of a knife, or any other type of edged weapon, these pieces should be brought together so that the places where they meet, that is, their joining edges and/or surfaces, come together as closely as possible. All joints should ideally be a part of a circle or a part of a straight line. The only reason that one should be able to detect the joint is because of the different nature of the materials, not because the actual joint itself can be seen. This is what is meant by fit.

All materials used in the fabrication of a knife or other edged weapon do not usually come in the form required for construction of that knife or weapon, the material needs to be shaped and reduced in size so that it fulfills the purpose for which it is intended, once shaped it needs to be smoothed and often polished. These processes of shaping, smoothing, polishing require that the surface of the material be subjected to cutting, grinding, moulding, and abrasive processes. In the completed knife or other edged weapon traces of the processes used to produce the finished product should not be visible.

What I have outlined is a description of perfection, and this is very seldom achieved, however, the closer to perfection an item comes, the better is the fit and finish.

I was a member of the Australian Knifemakers Guild for a number of years, and I displayed my work at a number of knife shows. The fit and finish that I could achieve in a complete knife was not even remotely close to the fit and finish that was achieved by many other makers. The principal reason for this was that I used only very primitive hand tools, my ethic was that I attempted to make in the ways that were available to artisans prior to the coming of the Modern Age.

At a knife show the buyers of custom and handmade knives carry jewellers loupes and magnifying glasses, and they examine the work of the makers very closely before they part with the purchase price. It is never only a matter of the overall appearance of a knife, nor of design, it is a matter of seeking total perfection in the construction of the knife, the type of perfection that is found in finely crafted jewellery.

Clearly we cannot apply these same standards to the construction of ethnic weaponry, but the closer we get to these standards, the better is the fit and finish of the item under consideration.

Thank you for your detailed and precise response, it was extremely helpful for me. I really wasn't kidding when I said 101! While as a collector I feel like a minow swimming among whales here, as a teacher I know that it's my duty as a learner to ask clarifying questions or I simply won't be able to learn. Please forgive my lack of basic knowledge, and be patient if I ask things that seem painfully obvious from the perspective of your many years of experience. Believe me, your answers are very much appreciated!

I'd love to see some of the handwork you did, if you don't mind posting it. If you've posted already, which I'd guess you probably must have, then the link would be great! The fact that you chose to use traditional techniques and tools in the modern age, and that you also attended shows where people were judging based on modern standards, gives you a really great perspective and I'd love to know more about it.

[driftwould]

Originally Posted by spiral

Savage.. but true & correct!

Also the butterscotch horn hilt was clearly cracked while still on the animal, but was still used for the hilt.

So despite good colour clearly a defective & imperfect material, so presumably not top quality.

spiral

Savage I don't mind. Clear and concise? Now that's useful! Your comment about the horn being cracked while still on the animal, and the significance of that, was also a useful and much appreciated observation, thanks. As a novice, I'm quite aware that there is a lot that I don't know that I need to know. As an educator, I know it's my duty as a learner to ask clarifying questions and to learn from unsuccessful attempts. It was suggested above that I count mistakes like this as tuition on my education, but if I'm to do so I need to know why and how they are mistakes. Only experienced people such as yourselves can clarify this. I'm also hoping that this thread can help other people in my position to learn more before making purchases. So please, be brutal and tell me everything you see that's, shall we say, less then perfect on these pieces! I'm not afraid of embarrassing myself- I said this was 101 right in the title. I AM afraid of making similar and/or easily avoidable mistakes in the future.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, a lot of people do not understand that often the only way to get the information or knowledge that one requires is to ask precise, specific questions.

This way the information can be tailored to the level that the person asking the question is ready to accept and understand. Give too much info, it gets lost, give too little and it gets lost. Ask the right question and hopefully the info given is just sufficient.

I don't have any pics of western style knives that I made, I still have a couple of these, but cannot immediately put my hand on them, I do have a very large quantity of damascus blades that I made, but again, no pics, however, here is a link to a page in my site, if you scroll down a bit there are 2 or 3 keris blades that I made a few years ago:-

http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/PBXIIempus.html

[blue lander]

An anecdote about Uzbek pichok knives

A little while back I bought a pichok, not nearly as nice as the ones you got but nice enough. It seemed sturdily built and sharp as a razor, and I intended to use it as a kitchen knife.

A few weeks later I was at a bar, and I overheard a man saying he was from Uzbekistan. I started chatting with him and mentioned that I bought a pichok and that I thought it was great. He looked at me like I was crazy and asked why I would bother importing one. He said they were junk and that he'd never use one unless he had no alternative. I asked why he wouldn't use one, he replied "because I know the kind of metal they use to make them." I probably should have asked him to elaborate, but it was enough to give me second thoughts about using that knife.

[driftwould]

Blue Lander and AG, thanks for the replies. Thanks to everyone for helping, the input I got from this discussion has given me a LOT of good places to start learning! Quality of handle materials, quality and type of steels, fit and finish, and on a side note, I've been looking into damascus. Two questions for the general public:

1) I'd still like to hear more thoughts on what you would take into consideration when judging the quality of steel in a modern-made, traditional knife. What standards should we hold something like that to, and would the seemingly obvious idea that they would be different from place to place (say, tribal Africa vs. tribal Taiwan (good access to modern materials, the modern world in general)) be correct? For that matter, what about an old one?

2) In keeping with the "101" theme, and hoping this will be useful for other beginners in the future (as well as myself), are there any other areas of general knowledge you can recommend I look into to build the broad knowledge base I need, given that I will - very regrettably - never have the time available to become a professional knife smith myself and learn by that route?

[A. G. Maisey]

Mate, you don't need to be a chicken to know what an egg looks like:- you can gain more knowledge than you would ever need about custom knives by reading the hard copy literature. I suggest a good place to start might be the books written by Jim Hrisoulas.

Re steel quality.

there's damascus and damascus. You can forge weld any two different ferric materials together and get something that looks like damascus, but it won't necessarily perform like damascus. A lot of the current stuff out of India and China is like this.

All the damascus that I made I used 01 steel in, combined with various other materials such as wrought iron, mild steel, nickel & so on.Whatever is used should be heat treated to the specs of the high carbon steel used. This is the reason I used 01, it is easy for an ordinary smith working with fire to get a good result in heat treatment with this steel.

However, depending on intended use, you can make a useable blade from ordinary mild steel which has only small quantities of carbon, its just that the blade will not hold an edge as long, but on the pro side, its not likely to break either. In fact, for a short stabbing weapon mild steel performs pretty good, and costs very little.

As to forming an opinion on the quality of steel based upon what you can actually see, well, I personally cannot.

Give a mirror finish to a piece of mild steel and it can look just as good as the finest hi-tech alloy steel. In fact, a lot of knives made as works of art are made from steel that has not been heat-treated. Why? Because the maker doesn't want to blow 40 or more hours work on a heat treat that goes bad, so he doesn't take the risk. The thing was made as a work of art, not a user.

If we are talking about trad knives, OK, here's the indicator:- go down to the local market and look at what the meat and vege sellers are using; if these are the local knives they are knives made to use.You can bet they're not fancy.

The user daggers and throat cutters of yesteryear are now replaced by more modern weapons, so these types of trad knife are often simply dress knives and made to dress standards not use standards. If you want a trad ethnic knife as a work of art that is also a user seek out a good, reliable maker and order one.

[JamesKelly]

Axes. In the late 1960's I did some work with the old Kelly Axe factory, Charleston, West Virginia, USA. Axes at that time were made of AISI 1086 carbon steel, meaning steel with a nominal carbon content about 0.86% (sorry, I do not know corresponding W.Nr. or EN #). They heat treated both axe and hammer heads in a lead bath. As I recall, tempered hardness of an axe was about Rockwell C55. The heaviest hammer they had made was 50 pounds, or 22.7 kilogram. That is the origin of the American expression "putting the hammer down" (i.e. go as fast as you can). When two steamboats chose to race on the Mississippi river one way to get some extra speed out of that old steam engine was to set a 50 pound hammer down on the steam safety valve. If the boiler was strong enough, you might win the race. If not, well, it no longer mattered.

What is the best steel & how hard should it be? Depends upon what you want the knife to do. If you make your living skinning bears or cutting ropes then a tool steel called D2 in the US, about 12% chromium 2% carbon, maybe Rockwell C 58 to 62, is appropriate for good edge holding.
If your life depends upon that blade not breaking, then a lower carbon & softer temper is appropriate. I.e., you want a tougher steel, less likely to break when abused. In the USA power lawnmower blades, all of them, were formerly made of AISI 1070 carbon steel (nominal 0.7% carbon), quenched in molten salt ("austempered" maybe 300C/600F), to end up with a hardness about Rockwell C40. This hardness is about the best combination of hardness and toughness one can get. No, if will not hold an edge as long as your favorite 440C blade at Rockwell C58, but neither is it like to break when you swing it at a large heavy or hard object. Now in the USA they use a lower carbon steel, 10B35, which has boron (B) for hardenability but only 0.35% carbon, for better toughness. These things do need to remain intact after striking the odd rock (or foot . . .).
Steel heat treatment is well described in various publications, some used to be free from the steel companies. It helps learn it from some knowledgeable metallurgical source. E.g., if you like to forge your blades, then do anneal them before hardening, to refine the grain a bit. Makes them a LOT tougher at the same hardness. Water with about 10% common salt in it quenches plain carbon steel faster, with less chance of distortion and cracking. &c, &c, &c.

I am a metallurgist & just edited this post as I am in a Grumpy Mood & this is a polite site. Apologies to all who read the un-edited version. Just put my less grumpy comments above.

[A. G. Maisey]

Sorry I missed your previous post, James. I'm sure it would have made good reading. Probably a bit like some of my posts that I've withdrawn from time to time. Much more entertaining than the polite ones.

Yeah, agreed 100%, the best steel depends on what it is used for.

During the 1980's when I was doing a lot of custom forge work I used to get an order from time to time from a couple of blokes who lived in Canada. I don't know exactly what they did, but they seemed to spend a lot time in the bush. The order was for two blade patterns, one something like the old Marbles pattern knife from the 1920-30 era, and one like an ordinary butcher's knife. They wanted them forged from recycled motor vehicle spring steel and given a spring temper. They reckoned that anything they could buy was not able to be sharpened when they were away from home, so they wanted a tough knife, to their own specs that they could sharpen on a stone in camp. Over about a 5 year period I probably supplied these blokes with about 30 or so knife blades.

I have no idea at all what Rockwell they ran at, they were pretty rough blades, and I did not have to fit handles, just provide a stick tang.

[driftwould]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Sorry I missed your previous post, James. I'm sure it would have made good reading. Probably a bit like some of my posts that I've withdrawn from time to time. Much more entertaining than the polite ones.

Yeah, agreed 100%, the best steel depends on what it is used for.

During the 1980's when I was doing a lot of custom forge work I used to get an order from time to time from a couple of blokes who lived in Canada. I don't know exactly what they did, but they seemed to spend a lot time in the bush. The order was for two blade patterns, one something like the old Marbles pattern knife from the 1920-30 era, and one like an ordinary butcher's knife. They wanted them forged from recycled motor vehicle spring steel and given a spring temper. They reckoned that anything they could buy was not able to be sharpened when they were away from home, so they wanted a tough knife, to their own specs that they could sharpen on a stone in camp. Over about a 5 year period I probably supplied these blokes with about 30 or so knife blades.

I have no idea at all what Rockwell they ran at, they were pretty rough blades, and I did not have to fit handles, just provide a stick tang.

Far from being offended, I thought it was quite informative - and entertaining! Also, thanks for going into such detail about this. As with other comments above, your input has given me useful and interesting insights to start from.