Quality of edged weapons (101)?

[driftwould]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

A DEEP AND COMPLICATED QUESTION AND ONE THAT WILL VARY WITH EACH INDIVIDUAL COLLECTOR, I AGREE WITH ALL COMMENTS SO FAR. EXPERIENCE AND PERSONNEL TASTES WILL DETERMINE THE WAY WE COLLECT, SO EACH COLLECTOR WILL SET HIS OWN PARAMETERS FOR COLLECTING.
IF FOR RESALE NOW OR LATER THE PROFIT IS MOST IMPORTANT SO WORKMANSHIP, MATERIALS, AUTHENTICITY AND DEMAND MUST BE OF PRIMARY IMPORTANCE.
SOME OF US COLLECT ITEMS THAT ARE ATTRACTIVE OR ESPECIALLY INTERESTING TO US PERSONALLY REGARDLESS OF RESALE , PROFIT OR WORKMANSHIP BUT TO LEARN ABOUT AND HAVE. RESALE SHOULD BE CONSIDERED EVEN BY US AS WHEN WE PASS THEM ON IT IS BEST TO BREAK EVEN OR GET SOME PROFIT. THE COST, AUTHENTICITY AND ATTRACTIVENESS TO US PERSONALLY ARE OUR MAIN MOTIVATION.
SOME CHOOSE TO SPECIALIZE IN ONE FIELD AND ARE ABLE TO AVOID BUYING IN OTHER FIELDS. THEY MAY CHOOSE TO ONLY COLLECT A FEW OF THE VERY BEST QUALITY OR A RANGE OF QUALITY FROM LOW GRADE COMMON EXAMPLES TO THOSE ONLY FOR ROYALTY.

OFTEN THE MORE TECHNICALLY ADVANCED SOCIETY'S PRODUCE WHAT WE CONSIDER HIGHER QUALITY ITEMS. THEIR STEEL, GOLD, SILVER, GEMS AND INLAYS ARE TECHNICALLY SUPERIOR. BUT IN SOME SOCIETY'S THE MORE CRUDE TECHNIQUES ARE THE TRUE ONES AND WHAT WE SEEK SO THE PRIMITIVE CRAFT IS AUTHENTIC. SO COLLECTING IN THESE FIELDS REQUIRES WE LOOK FOR THE PROPER CRUDE TECHNIQUES, PATINA AND WEAR TO DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN MODERN AND OLD. STONE TOOLS OR STEEL TOOLS OFTEN MAKES THE DIFFERENCE IN QUALITY. THE PROPER MATERIALS AND DESIGNS USED ALSO PLAYS ITS PART.
WHEN DEALING WITH ITEMS MADE ONE AT A TIME BY HAND BY DIFFERENT INDIVIDUALS AND TRIBES THAT CHANGE OVER TIME YIELDS A FIELD WHERE NO TWO ITEMS ARE EXACTLY ALIKE. THE FACTORY MADE ITEMS ON THE OTHER HAND ARE ALL MOSTLY ALIKE.
COLLECTING GOOD CONTEMPORARY MADE ITEMS MADE BY THE SOCIETY TODAY IS ANOTHER FIELD TO COLLECT IN AND HELPS SUPPORT AND PRESERVE THE NATIVE ART EVEN IF THEY ARE OFTEN CONSIDERED AS ONLY TOURIST ITEMS TODAY 100 YEARS FROM NOW WHO KNOWS?.
WE COLLECTORS ARE LIKE THE THINGS WE COLLECT, ARE ALL ONE OF A KIND AND EACH OF US FOLLOWS OUR OWN PATH AND LEARNS WHAT WE CAN FROM THE FORUM AND ELSEWHERE IN OUR OWN WAY. THE MAIN THING IS TO ENJOY, LEARN AND HAVE FUN.

Thanks a lot for the great response, Vandoo! Please see my response to AGM above.

[spiral]

This axe was the standard felling pattern in the UK Alan, nothing customised or special about it, It does what I ask of it though, better than modern axes sold for splitting.

In the UK we don't come across many axes that weight 7lb but are only a quarter inch thick 2 inches back from the edge. Here general purpose axes are thicker than that, {still concave of course.}Strangely in England being a 7lb Elwell it value is similar to your old bayonet! There sought after here! By both collectors & users!

I must admit the old American axes you mention & the custom Ozzie ones Ive never seen in the UK. Ill keep my eyes open for them! I guess Id have to search them out though... & any felling I do nowadays I only do with a chainsaw, so that's probably not much use to me, they look nice though & the custom handle looks usefull.

So when re.handled, Ill carry on using my 118 year old 7lb English pattern generic felling axe, {for splitting!}

Yes it does get tricky Driftwood, I have a couple of 200 year old plus rather exotic kukri that I haven't tested, but there of the reach out & touch someone with the sharpness rather than chopping weapons. But I don't intend to use them, I have others I can use.

spiral

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, I couldn't agree more Spiral:- if your old Elwell does what you want it to do, and does it well, of course you should continue to use it.

This has been exactly what we've been talking about. In fact, I'd guess that the old Elwell probably splits blocks of firewood better than a modern so-called "block-splitter". I've used these things and in my book they're bloody atrocious. I'd sooner use a hammer and wedge than a modern block splitter.

I believe that your old Elwell is as it came from the factory, and that any use it has had during its life was as a GP axe. If it had been used as a felling axe any self-respecting professional using it for this would have ground and sharpened it for this purpose. This axe has never been ground and sharpened as a felling axe for use on softwoods, so anybody trying to use it day in and day out for that job would have had a very hard row to hoe.


I believe without question that this design was very popular as a felling axe design in England, but design is one thing, grind is another. The factory produces the design, the user does the grind.

The same thing applies with the three axes I posted a pic of:- the Plumb came from the factory with GP grind, but the owner prior to my uncle re-ground it for ease of use on green eucalypt timber. The Keesteel came from the factory with a GP grind, and it has never been reground, if it were to be reground it would come up as a very fine axe.The Kelly came from the factory with a GP design and GP grind, this axe can never be anything else but a GP axe.

Those custom makers of axes, that I put the links in for, produce exceptionally fine axes, and they offer a number of grinds straight from the factory that will suit the timber that the axe is to be used on, this saves the buyer a lot of time.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I believe that your old Elwell is as it came from the factory, and that any use it has had during its life was as a GP axe. If it had been used as a felling axe any self-respecting professional using it for this would have ground and sharpened it for this purpose. This axe has never been ground and sharpened as a felling axe for use on softwoods, so anybody trying to use it day in and day out for that job would have had a very hard row to hoe.
.

Yes it seemed virtually unused when I found it a couple of decades ago.

Ive never ground it.

So your deduction is probably correct!

Spiral

[A. G. Maisey]

Driftwould, it appears that you understood the message I was attempting to convey, this being so I'd guess that you have probably more than a little bit study in front of you. This knowledge game tends to become easier if one can narrow focus.

In respect of fit and finish.

Perhaps the best way to understand these two things, as they apply to weaponry, is to look at a lot of examples of modern custom knifemakers work.

The best of these blokes are absolute fanatics on fit and finish.

I would not expect to see the same standard, or even anything close, when it comes to ethnic weaponry, but having seen the best that can be done you then have a yardstick to use against whatever else you might be looking at.

I feel that the two related concepts of fit and finish apply to probably most handmade objects, but within any field the interpretation will be different, for example fit and finish certainly apply to a bespoke suit, but the expert on tailoring excellence is not really equipped to judge a bespoke English longbow, and of course the opposite also applies.

So this gets back to comments that others have made, and that boil down to really only one thing:- experience. I don't know of any short cuts, but if you spend your available learning time by directing it towards the areas of greatest return you might be able to reduce the total time spent.

Fit and finish on sharp pointy things? Visit some custom knife shows.

[driftwould]

Well, since we're deep into this, here are some pictures of my latest acquisitions from Uzbekistan. Any thoughts on the quality, and how close or far from my goal I am? Unfortunately, some of them only had some pretty horrible sheathes (plastic?!) available, but what else could I do?

[A. G. Maisey]

I cannot give any opinion on this, because I do not know what is considered to be acceptable quality where these were made, however, if we compare this work to modern custom knife work --- which would be a patently ridiculous thing to do --- the fit and finish is very, very ordinary.

Look at the very best first, then get experience in the specific field.

[driftwould]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I cannot give any opinion on this, because I do not know what is considered to be acceptable quality where these were made, however, if we compare this work to modern custom knife work --- which would be a patently ridiculous thing to do --- the fit and finish is very, very ordinary.

Look at the very best first, then get experience in the specific field.

Okay, that's exactly what I was trying to figure out, and I was worried that it might be something like you said. I'll definitely be looking for opportunities to do what you said about seeing the very best. In the meantime, what exactly are you looking at in terms of fit and finish on these?