Plains stone axe for ?ing

[trenchwarfare]

As a casual student of Native American weapons, I agree with John. Most weapons being as he described. My thoughts are, that this is an early 20th century, "tourista" piece. If that's the case, it is still very desirable, and valuable. Items from that era, can sell for thousands.

[Tim Simmons]

Thanks for the most interesting replies. Fortunately the cost was bearable. My only riposte will be that I can provide pictures of examples from books of collections that differ. Also examples of artifacts with no missing beads or decorative elements. We all have perfect pieces in our collections? I do appreciate your input.

John, I would like opinions on this stone club?

[jwkiernan]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Thanks for the most interesting replies. Fortunately the cost was bearable. My only riposte will be that I can provide pictures of examples from books of collections that differ. Also examples of artifacts with no missing beads or decorative elements. We all have perfect pieces in our collections? I do appreciate your input.

John, I would like opinions on this stone club?

Tim,

This piece looks a lot better to me (again, I'd need to see close-ups of the stone head to truly give you my opinion on it). The haft looks correct, the sewing of and the age of the rawhide looks correct (old rawhide unless kept in the right environment continues to shrink and shrivel and take on a more aged appearance). The handle (again from what I can see in the photos) appears to have use wear and I think I can see the remnants of what appears to be abrasive marks from shaping the handle with stone tools.

Most times utilitarian tools lack the refinery seen in other formalized stone tools. All of the authentic, "war clubs", if you will that I have seen/handled have had very nice refined heads normally of some type of quartzite normally naturally occurring rock in the shaped desired...even these normally had a groove pecked in/around the center to facilitate hafting (in a manner demonstrated in the last piece you displayed). Remember, these weapons were designed for maximum impact and affect, normally are very hardy and made of a material that can withstand repetitive impacts. Flint/chert can meet those requirements (referring to your original post) but must be constructed correctly (engineered as pertaining to the overall design of the head) with the right angle on the bit, and made out of a tougher flint or chert.

As far as perfect pieces, I get more afraid/leery of a perfect example of any stone tool or hafted tool. First off, perfect specimens are out there, but in extremely limited numbers, especially for plains peices. Finding preserved hafted artifacts (North American) of true antiquity is very rare as the conditions ideal for the preservation of perishables only exist in a few regions of N. America (normally arid, desert areas) or if they were collected and curated somewhere in their life. I have a few acquaintances that have extensive perishable collections with outstanding examples of netting, sandals, pieces of arrow/dart shafts, atlatls ect. The stuff is out there, but rare.

I hope this helps...again, the last piece you posted from what I see looks like a nice older utilitarian piece...North America, I am not sure without closer examination of the head...but again, I like it and it looks right! Have a great and safe weekend!

All my best,

John

[Tim Simmons]

It has arrived and to my surprise it is really rather nice. I do not know what to make of it. There is quality to it, even patina. It has been constructed with a lot of consideration to weight and balance. It is light and although one could make a mess of somebodies head and face with it I do not think it has been made as an axe. The stone is the right shape for stone blades from the plains { I will upload pics from reference books }
I have taken some pictures that differ somewhat from the sellers. I think they are quite interesting when seem in the light of this thread-

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18864

If I were an authority I might suggest that this may well be a coup stick that just happens to be in the form of an axe.

Not all coup stick are long and like a Sheppards crook { I will upload pictures } I am not saying it is something from the times when Red Cloud sent the army packing. The big but is when does traditional art stop and recreation for a mass tourist market { not to mention the fantasy market, dream catcher style } take over. I might suggest there may well have been a period of transition where real or of the right ethos art was made for limited sale around the turn of the 19/20 centuries. Many real experienced warriors joined Buffalo Bill? It could still be a load of c--p.

[Shakethetrees]

In my somewhat limited experience with American Indian weapons, one thing I see consistently is that the thread used to stitch the hide should be sinew, not cotton, until late in the game.

There should be some patina at the junction of brass tacks and leather.

The chemicals used in the tanning process, whether commercially tanned, or tanned on the Plains using brains of the animal, or untanned rawhide, all will interact with the brass over time, dirt from regular handling will be found in traces in the crevices and overall.

There should be a worn in appearance, like everything has been together for a long time, and not look like it has been left on a shelf or handled gingerly, with white cotton gloves as in a museum.

Remember, these were tools that could and would be replaced when worn out or broken, not artifacts nought of in the way we do today.

[Tim Simmons]

Thank you for your interest. This piece is sewn with sinew, but supplies of thread sinew can be found on the internet. The stone takes some skill to make. How much time does it take to do this? How much money does a faker , fantasy reproduction artist want from thier efforts? I do not know. All I can say is that if you have ever tried to carve a nice polished pleasant to hold walking stick or hiking stick with some artistic expression, takes many hours.

[Shakethetrees]

Glad to contribute.

I have known a number of fakers over the years, either "improvers" to antique weaponry, (who just somehow can't leave a good piece alone. They sharpen edges that were not previously sharp, add semiprecious or precious stones, enhance or add names or inscriptions, etc.), creators, who make things from scratch, and, the most dangerous, those who buy marginal pieces that are honest and reverse engineer an interesting provenance to lock several things together that supposedly tell a story using period business cards invoices, photographs, or other things. They, in turn, will sell these conglomerations at gun shows for surprisingly big money. An example of this type are the "Vampire boxes". A nice, period box, a nice old crucifix, old bottles for holy water, an old bible or other holy book, a wooden stake or two, some garlic, an old (and not too valuable pistol of the"period" and maybe a few cast silver bullets thrown in for good measure.

I live in a city that through books and movies, somehow has been seen as a home for vampires in the 18th and 19th centuries. There have never, repeat, never been creations like vampire boxes here, or anywhere else.

The point of this diatribe is to state that sometime fakers can make good money from their deceptions, and see it as a challenge. They do not think of it terms of the cost of materials and billable hours, straight business, train of thought.

A late, and highly respected author of a guide to antique guns asked me at a show about a particular individual who was selling such trash for big money. Apparently things were starting to catch up to him. As we walked around, the person in question just happened to walk down another aisle a row or two away!

I pointed him out, both of us astonished that the timing could not have been more perfect. And he had one of his cohorts with him as well! It seems that a number of East Coast collectors who had been taken by this bum were starting to look for him.

Anyway, over breakfast the next day, the conversation continued, he asked if I possibly had a photo of him. No, why would I?

Well, in the city paper that morning they had a little coverage of this show, and in a picture, guess who was front and center?

Not long after that, this person was not to be seen at shows and was rumored to be selling used cars or siding somewhere a thousand miles away!

But, as that was seven or eight years ago, I have since heard rumors that he's back, the statute of limitations having run out.

The old axiom, "you can't kill bad grass" definitely applies here.

I again apologize for the length of this story, I hope that everyone out there in the collecting world will be on guard for this.

[David]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Thank you for your interest. This piece is sewn with sinew, but supplies of thread sinew can be found on the internet. The stone takes some skill to make. How much time does it take to do this? How much money does a faker , fantasy reproduction artist want from thier efforts?

It's an interesting item for sure Tim. One possibility doesn't really seem to be considered here. Sometimes hobbyists create pieces like this purely for their own enjoyment. A am currently working on my own battle axe right now. Forged the head from a railway spike. So it may not necessarily be a matter of how much effort a faker might be willing to put into such a piece for the effort. I have put many hours of work into my axe and shed a bit of blood over it besides. It's about the love and accomplishment of making the thing, not any money since it is not for sale. But years down the line when some one finds it in my estate sale...???
Of course my axe isn't being made to appear to be from any one culture so it probably won't fool anyone. But lots of folks make such things as close to original specs as they can just to show they can still do it.

[Roland_M]

Hello Tim,

a few years ago I bought a North American flint stone arrow head, which is some hundred years old. If the blade is old and real, the edge should be sharp, this is a very important point. My arrowhead is still very sharp.

I have a modern reproduction spear head, made from vulcano glass. A translucent spear head, looks very nice but it is unsharp.


Kind regards Roland

[Tim Simmons]

I am only adding this link as again it supports my hypothesis that this could well be genuine. Read stone tomahawks more fancy than everyday ones.

http://www.indians.org/articles/nati...tomahawks.html

[Tim Simmons]

In this thread I suggested that this item could possibly be a coup stick. I am not saying it is and I am not convinced, but look here. Possible? The same length 29 inches.

http://www.icollector.com/Plains-Coup-Stick_i9667226

also here
https://www.bidsquare.com/l/190/plains-coup-stick