Hunting Sword no1

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much Norman for your kind words, indeed the time spent going through all these references made for fascinating reading and I wanted to share as much as I could here for context mostly.
What Dmitry notes is most interesting and I would be even more intrigued to know what references support this fleur de lys makers mark (Fernando thank you for that V&A entry which shows Joseph Reason c.1730).

While there were many of these blades of course on English hangers and hunting swords I am curious on the examples found on French and it seems at least one or more Continental swords (need to check further)/ The examples found in the American colonies would be self explanatory, but other than obvious provenance error or broad assumption, it seems odd to see British made blades in Continental swords .

[Jim McDougall]

I decided to continue my research with what resources I have at hand here as this topic is pretty fascinating. My greatest regret as we left on this trip is that I don't have at hand Southwick; Annis & May and some of the other pertinent books, so I will continue as best as possible.

The assertion that these blades must be English seems based on some entries, such as the V&A example showing the FDL (=fluer de lys) as used by Joseph Reason c.1730 and the number of British swords bearing blades with this mark through the 18th century 1720s into 70s. The specific note that this mark was used by the London Cutlers Co. I also questioned.

Did the London Cutlers Co. make blades? or were most, if not even nearly all, imported from Germany? Did any particular English smith or cutler use this FDL as his mark? Was the mark indeed for London Cutlers Co.?

In Stuart Mowbrays new (and fantastic!) new book ("British Military Swords 1600-1660) there is good discussion on the Cutlers Company, and while of course the periods covered predate the swords we are focused on here, the context of this organization and English swords and blades is well placed .

On p.27, he notes, citing a reference in the early 1700s, "...the sword cutler frequently deals in knives and cutlery but consider him here as concerned in mounting swords, making scabbards etc. The blades come mostly from abroad, and none of them are made by the sword cutler". In another reference (p34) it is noted (cited from "History of the Cutlers Co., C.Welch) that "...it wasn't practical for London cutlers to make their own blades"

It seems that "...imported blades were not seen as a bad thing. Most British military men seem to have been of the opinion that Dutch/German blades were superior to British blades" (p.31, Mowbray) . I believe this was cited from "The Mark of the Sword: A Narrative History of the Cutlers Co. 1189-1975" Tom Girtin.
In "Boarders Away" (Gilkerson, 1991, p.89) it is noted that "...many of the blades sold by England to America were deemed too inferior for local consumption and so were foisted off on the colonists. German blades crossed the ocean as well, usually via England".

It would seem that these comments would support the idea that at least some blades were indeed made by makers in England, but seemed that they were far from being comparable to German blades. The German blades which went to America would be my guess to have belonged to British forces rather than for sale to colonists, as noted for English blades.

We know that German swordsmiths had come to England in the early 17th century to Hounslow, and that they had been joined by English smiths as well as the enterprise grew. By 1673, the King had declared that ' sword blades ought to be made in England' (Aylward, 1945, p.31). The end of the Hounslow enterprise seems to have dissipated just after the Civil War but another similar enterprise based on German swordsmiths ( some believed from Hounslow) was formed at Shotley Bridge. The numbers of actual German smiths and English became rather clouded as many Germans had Anglicized their names, but it seems that even after the demise of this enterprise as well (c.1703) there were indeed English smiths making blades.

On p.35 (Aylward, 1945, op.cit) in a comment attributed to Charles Ffoulkes (1932), ..the effort to acclimatize the swordsmiths art in England was unsuccessful, and it is not even likely that the prime object of the promoters goal was attained viz. the training of English apprentices in German methods".
On p.33 Aylward had also noted, regarding at least with the later Shotley Bridge venture, it appeared that they were importing forgings from Solingen which were ground, tempered and finished at Shotley. While the mill had closed in 1703, it was apparently reopened by Hermann Mohll and later sold to Robrt Oley in 1724.

By the 1767, according to Aylward (p.35) ".there were only three bladesmiths in Birmingham , then the seat of the English sword blade trade" In 1783, the Government sought to import sword blades without payment of duties due to the 'disrepute' of English blades. This would suggest there must have been far more than listed in the Birmingham records, and it is stated that by 1814 it was well populated with smiths, so those numbers must have rapidly increased.
This effort toward removal of duties as well as large orders of blades by EIC (competing German vs. English smiths) led to the 'sword scandals' spearheaded by Thomas Gill,Birmingham.

In Gyngell ("Armourers Marks, 1959) there are many gunsmiths marks shown which are comprised with a sort of half FDL or vestigial bottom half and consistently over the smiths initials. These devices are not at all similar to the European versions as seen on these blades. A gunsmith named Ralph Barras (1721), uses a rather gangly looking FDL with only a single stem below the trefoil.
There are no swordsmiths or cutlers shown with the FDL.

I would suggest that these blades were likely to have been imported from Germany as previously suggested, and probably 'outfitted' by cutlers in England by mounting in locally made hilts. As the Cutlers Co. was far more limited in its scope and powers in my view at least, it is doubtful this FDL had anything to do with that organization as a universal mark. The mark used by them in the 17th century was a dagger (more of a sword) which was to accompany the registered cutlers mark.

With Solingen innovation, I believe that the FDL (fleur de lis) as an accommodation toward marks using this device well established by then in England. With then strong ties between English and French gentry and possibly even more esoteric connections it seems possible that the mark had even deeper connotations.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

An amazing thread !! More !!

I know less than nothing about these European weapons ... however, I did find this at http://www.cullodenantiques.com/page...d-weapons.html to whit there appears an equal Fleur de Lys below from that weapon not an English Dragoons Basket Hilted Backsword but a Scottish Troop Horse Grenadiers Sword Sorry Norman !!

OOPS...!! This I note has already generally been pointed to earlier at #6.. but I make the correction.

I note also at #9 some arabic to the blade which is a variation on the "God is Great" theme but stacked half sideways...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Ibrahiim,
Thank you for the additional pics of the interesting Culloden House item which Norman posted in #6 and noted as a basket hilted sword. As it was not specifically identified it is interesting to know that it was a horse grenadier sword. I have always considered Robert Docherty's descriptions and detail most reliable, and this is a great example.



The Scottish regiments in the British army were receiving swords made in Birmingham and London for a good number of years before Culloden (1746). One of the first recordings of an actual supplier was 1759, when Nathaniel Jeffries was noted having delivered 3500 broadswords that year ( "Swords for the Highland Regiments 1757-1784" Anthony Darling, 1988 , p.13).
He and Dru Drury were both actually goldsmiths, who according to Darling (p.53) probably subcontracted for finished guards, pommels and blades from Birmingham and assembled them at their workshops in London, contributing their own grips and coverings.

They both stamped the blades with crown over their names in roughly similar location to these fleur de lis stamps and with similar 'artwork'.

In his interesting monograph , "Scottish Swords from the Battlefield at Culloden" (Mowbray, 1971) Lord Archibald Campbell is describing a number of blades from the tragic battle of 1746, which were rather heinously fabricated into a fence. He claims that virtually all the blades, save about two stated from the British, were all Scottish. This is most curious as he describes the blades and types noting, "...another type was a single cutting edge with a broad back. These are in many instances stamped with a FLEUR DE LIS others with a running dog or hare; another is marked HARVEY which cannot be made out of the British Isles, probably".

While we can imagine the running dog? is probably the Solingen wolf, and Harvey is noted by Darling (p53) as the probable source for the 'H' mark found on tangs of disassembled blades from these Scottish regimental swords......the mention of the fleur de lys is compelling.

Also interesting of course is the note regarding these single edged blades and calling it a 'broadsword'. In earlier times the term broadsword was in effect generally used often referring to what we now term 'backswords' as well as the more properly termed double edged blades . Why this is important is that it is generally held that true Scottish broadswords (i.e basket hilts) are invariably double edged . The backsword was favored in the 18th century for British dragoon regiments.

Looking further into European use of the fleur de lys on blades, in the Wallace Collection catalog (Sir James Mann, 1962) item A474 is a German two hand sword of 16th century with deep stamped fleur de lys on each blade face.

In "The Plug Bayonet" (R.D.C.Evans, p.76, #6) is the fleur de lys marking stated as being probably a French state ownership stamp, not the stamp of an individual cutler. It was used for example by some arms producers at Tulle and St Etienne who supplied arms to the Magasin Royal des Armes de Paris from 1666 onward . It is also found on Swiss military bayonets c.1680 so not always French.
The stamped fleur de lys depicted is deeply stamped and bold, not the 'artwork' type seen on our examples.

While all these references do not give us a final answer as to the probable origin of the fleur de lys marks found in common on these blades, the form does suggest they may have been placed on them after being received in England in the parcels of blades auctioned to cutlers. As often the case with trade blades they were likely produced as 'blanks' in Solingen and stamped as signifier of 'lots' or perhaps a quality mark alluding perhaps to the earlier marks in Germany or possibly French associations previously noted .

That is of course one scenario, but the question remains, why does this same mark occur on some blades of swords with apparent Continental provenance? There is the rub, are those simply misidentified or have been transported back across the channel in later dealings?

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
Another sword French C1740, the sword belongs to a member over on S.F.I. and I do hope he doesn't mind me using his photos.
Regards,
Norman.

P.S. Sorry Jim another spanner in the works etc etc.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Ibrahiim,
I didn't post a link to the specific commercial site as I believe it is against Forum Policy but many thanks for your interest in this discussion. I'm at a bit of a loss though to make out the Arabic script you mention in your post.
My Regards,
Norman.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Ibrahiim,
I didn't post a link to the specific commercial site as I believe it is against Forum Policy but many thanks for your interest in this discussion. I'm at a bit of a loss though to make out the Arabic script you mention in your post.
My Regards,
Norman.

Salaams Norman, I have no problem inserting web sites provided it is logged as such and for research...clearly not associated to some purchase..thus allowed. On the Arabic I am wrong... Its funny but I switched it on just now and it is clearly a fleur de lys stamp whereas yesterday I swear I was seeing a peculiar "God is Great" stamp... I put it down to the heat (about 50 degrees yesterday !) Apologies for that.

Anyway on the website there are a couple of swords and the fleur de lys appears to be from the Scottish ... would this be because of the Franco/ Scottish allegiance at the time?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.