Cretan Revolution Weapons 18th century

[David]

Well done Jim..please continue…

[spiral]

I think wherever posted, The lack of good photos & interaction was the problem.

Personaly I think the European forum offshoot, weakens the site & even hints at racialism.. Actually that may be wrong. A more accurate word would maybe be Colonalism A sort of "We bloody Europeans are not Ethnographic! Thats fuzzy wuzzys, Indian & Asian stuff" Type of attitude.

While Ethnographic is actually the scientific description of peoples and cultures with their customs, habits, tools, weapons etc. and there mutual differences. one has to remember Europeans are ethnographic as well! Including the English & maybe even new world Americans too! {All though I guess that get more complex....}

A break down of English, German, Portuguese, French, Japanese or Sudanese , zulu or any other sub division forum within ethnography I could understand But A "European" section?

I think Jims post & this thread illustrate the problem here most succinctly.

Were all people of race with are similarities & differences to all other races after all.

spiral

[Jim McDougall]

Actually all I said was I was surprised there was not any response to the posts, even after Skarts agreed to post more pictures, and I thought at least the ones already there were good enough at least to start a discussion .

I simply reopened the thread because I thought the topic was interesting and certainly did not want to start an international incident!!! Good grief!!!
This was about the forum heading, and entirely a geographic issue concerning these countries..thats all!!!
There is no reason to go off on all these tangents on race etc.!!!

Lets get back to the discussion on Cretan arms HERE, and focus on that topic....I went through chaos to excavate my books here in the bookmobile, and I don't want all that for nothing!

Any further posts I expect will be on these weapons or historical data around them........no more editorials!

Thanks guys

[Andrew]

This thread is surreal.

The European Armoury sub-forum was created for discussion of "History and development of European arms and armor, ancient through medieval and up to the close of the 19th century." It is not "racialist", "nationalistic", or "colonialistic". It was created for housekeeping purposes so the Forum staff could better manage moderation duties. The Keris Warung Kopi was created for the same reason. Nothing more.


Back on topic or this thread will be closed.

[Jim McDougall]

To continue a look into these two weapons, and I do hope Skarts will return..as I mentioned I retrieved two references which I hope can help here somewhat. The first is the book "The Arms of Greece: And Her Balkan Neighbors" by Dr Robert Elgood (2009), and the other is "The Cretan Dagger" by Nikos Vasilatos (1993), which is in Greek but with extracts in English.

These references are detailed and complex for someone such as myself entirely unfamiliar with the arms of these regions, but I sincerely wanted to offer at least some kind of helpful observations. In my first hours of going through mostly Elgood, which is a phenomenal work and characteristic of his thorough detail, I can offer a few notes.

The pistol resembles two seen in Elgood (#105,106) in its straighter profile of the butt, somewhat in the manner of the Greek and Albanian 'roka' (rat tailed pistols) but obviously far from defined similarity. In the notes toward the lock, I would believe it is more probably Brescian, as these seem to have been more prevalent in these regions in Greece, so Cretan circumstances likely to follow. In around 1806 the Brescian makers did follow French designs in degree, so that might lend to the French attribution.

I found it curious that this pistol was flintlock, but Elgood notes the very conservative nature of Balkan society toward arms and costume. Here I would note that most of the observations pertaining to Greek or Balkan arms in general might be construed as non applicable to Crete, however it seems the influences would have been well diffused despite some differences.
While percussion locks were known by around 1847, it seems that in many regions in the 19th century, flintlocks were still favored as they did not require the more stringent ammunition supplies that percussion did.


On the yataghan, it seems that I saw a note suggesting blades were narrower, but need to relocate. On the motif, the most notable to me is the distinct zoomorphic chape decoration which apparently represents a snake.
These seem prevalent on scabbards throughout Balkan regions and the symbolism appears to be apotropaic, to ward off the evil eye, and also represents justice . There is a saying or motto, 'na se phaei to phidi' (= may the snake get you) which might align with that concept.
In Montenegrin legends one subject was a great warrior called 'ljuta zmija'
(=fierce serpent) which also might be alluded to with these scabbard tip motifs.
* another interesting note on these lines is that Montenegrins, Albanians and Greeks typically referred collectively to firearms as 'snakes', but obviously this is not related directly to the scabbard motif on edged weapons.

These were turbulent times in these regions, and I think it is important for our review and discussion of these arms to remain objective, and to realize that in war and conflicts unpleasant circumstances prevailed. Our study is focused on the arms as historic objects only, and must be considered respectfully .

I do hope these few observations will at least give some perspective on this pistol and yataghan, and that other others will follow.

[fernando]

Hi guys,
I sincerely don't understand why any thread containing doubts about where it should be better posted can not be moved or, in the context, copied to another sub-forum.
It was the thread author himself who said the pistol had an European origin and an European lock.
There are certainly members who more frequently (or only) visit one of the forum sections and the thread author (and us all) may only benefit with a wider range of contributions.
I take it that we are all here to collaborate ones with each other; all of us. If the thread was cloned to the European section soon as it was suggested, some approaches would have not taken place as well as any consequent position of strength ... which is always something bitter to swallow.

.

[Jim McDougall]

Very well said Nando. It seems there have always been tenuous concerns over whether an item is 'ethnographic' or if it may be considered European , particularly in regions either European colonized or with profound trade with Europe. Much of this has of course been due to the use of European made components in indigenous weapons, or sometimes hybridized forms reflecting European influence.

This was the very reason the European Armoury was begun some years ago. It seemed to me that it would be helpful to have a centralized forum which could focus on the study of the weapon forms which influenced and often provided components in many ethnographic forms. Obviously, in many cases it was difficult to determine which category certain anomalies might be better placed in , and the concept of cross referencing has worked effectively in many instances.

I believe most of the unfortunate misunderstanding in this thread developed from a suggestion that this protocol might have served to facilitate it better which was mistaken in meaning. The point that you make noting that if these weapons were placed in both forums, we would have had the benefit of both considerable fields of knowledge........a most salient point!

The idea that yataghans should be placed in the European section was of course seemingly preposterous, and the rather uncommonly held idea of Greece and Balkans being part of Europe despite being tenuously true revealed interesting perspective to this dilemma. As well noted by Ibrahiim, the concept of Europe geographically is in many cases to do with perception and these regions of the Balkans, Greece and even Russia are considered peripheral parts of Europe.

I would offer cases where yataghans could very well fall into the more stringent European category, and those would primarily have to do with auxiliary units in the armies of European countries using ethnic groups from the Balkans, based often on the Pandour units of the 18th century. There are a good number of examples of these types of yataghans made for European officers, and I have seen them even with European cyphers and motif on the blades.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi guys,
I sincerely don't understand why any thread containing doubts about where it should be better posted can not be moved or, in the context, copied to another sub-forum.
It was the thread author himself who said the pistol had an European origin and an European lock.
There are certainly members who more frequently (or only) visit one of the forum sections and the thread author (and us all) may only benefit with a wider range of contributions.
I take it that we are all here to collaborate ones with each other; all of us. If the thread was cloned to the European section soon as it was suggested, some approaches would have not taken place as well as any consequent position of strength ... which is always something bitter to swallow.

.

Nando, I had intended copy the thread link to the Euro forum yesterday, but completely forgot. :0

Will remedy that now.

A