Two shamanic Tonkin knives

Sajen · 1st May 2014, 10:43 AM

Thank you as well Jim!

And special for your as usual good thoughts about them. You are correct, they are not sharpened so is a ritual use very probable. And I agree with you that the antler hilts seems to have a talismanic purpose. See also the other knife from this area I have posted some time ago: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=antler, the handle from this knife is most probable from the same antler as this both. I will try to contact the people fom the given link, maybe they are able to provide more informations.

Regards,
Detlef

Battara · 1st May 2014, 11:48 PM

Thank you so much for posting these. I know nothing about these but am interested in anything shamanic (personal and professional reasons).

Andrew · 2nd May 2014, 12:33 AM

Definitely mainland SEA.

The curved example is likely Vietnamese--Chinese motifs on the handle and blade make me lean towards that.

The other example strikes me a Laotian or northern Thai.

Regardless, nice examples.

Sajen · 2nd May 2014, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

Definitely mainland SEA.

The curved example is likely Vietnamese--Chinese motifs on the handle and blade make me lean towards that.

The other example strikes me a Laotian or northern Thai.

Regardless, nice examples.

Thank you Andrew, do you agree that they are shamanic knives? And do have seen before similar knives? I am really curious to see something similar since I never have seen such knives before.

Regards,
Detlef

Andrew · 2nd May 2014, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Thank you Andrew, do you agree that they are shamanic knives? And do have seen before similar knives? I am really curious to see something similar since I never have seen such knives before.

Regards,
Detlef

Hi Detlef. I have seen similar, small knives, although not like the one with the curved blade--that is unusual in my personal experience.

The examples I've handled and collected with antler handles/pommels are from Cambodia, Thailand, Laos and Burma. For reasons unknown even to myself, I've never delved into Vietnamese weapons. I tend to think of them as more closely related to Chinese weapons than the other cultures in continental SEA, my main area of interest.

The curved one may be ritualistic, or may be purely decorative--I have no idea.

The other one, with the square tip, could be a type of "priest knife" similar to those carried by devout Buddhists in Thailand. It, also, reminds me of some betel nut knives I've seen. Any signs that it has ever had a sharp edge?

Best,
A

Sajen · 2nd May 2014, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

Hi Detlef. I have seen similar, small knives, although not like the one with the curved blade--that is unusual in my personal experience.

The examples I've handled and collected with antler handles/pommels are from Cambodia, Thailand, Laos and Burma. For reasons unknown even to myself, I've never delved into Vietnamese weapons. I tend to think of them as more closely related to Chinese weapons than the other cultures in continental SEA, my main area of interest.

The curved one may be ritualistic, or may be purely decorative--I have no idea.

The other one, with the square tip, could be a type of "priest knife" similar to those carried by devout Buddhists in Thailand. It, also, reminds me of some betel nut knives I've seen. Any signs that it has ever had a sharp edge?

Best,
A

Hi Andrew,

thank you again! Both knives have clearly a spine and edge but on both the edge isn't sharp. By the small one with steel blade it could be that it was sharp at any time but I doubt.

And I don't know how the betel nut is used in this area. In India and Java/Bali the betel nut is used dry and so as hard nut, in some other parts of Indonesia the nut is used as young nut, so it is very soft (I have tried it in both ways and prefer the dry one

). What I want to say is that the small knife could easily be used for young betel nuts but no way for dry/hard ones. By the patinated blade I can imagine that it was maybe used for cutting young nuts.

Regards,
Detlef

Sajen · 2nd May 2014, 02:04 PM

I have get a very informed respond from one person of the from Jim given site, thank you very much Mark Rapoport!

Here what he have written:

i AM HAPPY TO HELP. The one on the right is easy. We have many such (or at least we used to; they are now scarce). They are made for use by hunters, as a utility knife but especially for removing the fat and other things from the inner surface of hides. For that reason, they do not have to be sharp along the long edges. The working edge is the flat short end portion. The knife can be held in the usual way, but the angle formed by the two parts of the deerhorn is ergonomic for inserting a finger or meshing with the web space between two fingers and pushing the end edge along the inside of the hide.

I have attached a fact sheet which we prepared for persons who purchase such knives from us. The ones illustrated have copper and brass handles, but engraved ones of silver (such as yours) or silver-plated brass are seen almost as often. These are most often identified as being from the Muong people (different from the Hmong/Mong). However, there is cross-cultural adoption of technology here, and this one might well be from a neighboring group.

And here partly what is written in the fact sheet which was attached to his mail:

Similarly, the knives that they use for skinning, cutting meat, making traps, etc. is also made totally from locally available materials, worked locally. The blades are always of iron. Iron keeps a sharp edge better than other metals, but rusts quickly. Often, the blade must be replaced with a new one. The “story” of the handle is a much more interesting tale.

As with all hunters, luck is an important component of success in hunting. In fact, luck is so important that it cannot “be left to chance”. Some groups have small calendars to specify which animals (or none at all) should be hunted on a given day. Others carry or wear talismans. Incorporating talismans into your tools is another good way. A knife is essential for a hunter (and in fact for men in general) for doing their work, and they are ubiquitous. The groups north and west of Hanoi make these into small works of art. The handles are usually of bronze, brass, silver or a combination of two or three of these metals. Often, the metals are used as decorative elements, either with simple braid designs or (in the case of silver) with floral and other patterns in three dimensions onto the metal. Often, the contrast in color among the metals is used as a decorative element.
The most important part, however, is the end of the handle. These are always made from parts of animals that are associated with hunting, masculinity, or power.
These include:
• Deer antler (uncarved and unshaped)
• Bear teeth
• Tiger teeth
• Ivory
• Dog teeth
• Bear or tiger claws (rare)

The deer antler is the most commonly chosen. The association with speed is obvious, as is the masculinity (since female deer of the species used do not have antlers). The naturally grooved surface is always left intact (in much the same way that it is in manner objects from Bavaria and elsewhere.) It often acquires a very dark patina from use and from the smoke of wood fires. One interesting nuance can be found on those that have one long and one short spike, creating a space within a “check-mark”. This is often used as an ergonomic element, acting as a brace for the fifth finger. Evidence of this is extensive wear and very smooth patina in that area. It is hard to judge age on these objects, since patina and wear is associated more with amount of use than with absolute age. We have been told that some are more than one hundred years old, but most are probably from one-third to one-half that old. Similarly, we are not aware of any characteristics that would allow precise assignment of any given knife to one specific ethnic group.

These hunting knives are from Muong men in Hoa Binh province, approximately 80 km from Hanoi. The Muong people live very closely with the Kinh majority people and spread over in different provinces in Vietnam. In addition, they are both descended from the Dong Son people, the first large and complex civilization in Viet Nam (400 B.C. to 100 A.D.)The tribal groups in Vietnam live mainly by growing and hunting. A hunter’s knife is not used to capture or bring down animals. Rather, it is the key tool in cutting bamboo to make traps, dressing animals, and preparing food while in the forest. As is common in society for which hunting is a crucial means of obtaining food, talismans play a role in assuring success of the hunt (and the safety of the hunters). Often, these talismans are parts of animals known for speed, power, or other traits useful for a hunter to acquire. These objects often are used to decorate to their knives and other functional tools.

Its handle was made of bronze (or, occasionally, bronze overlaid with silver), with the horn of a small deer or other talismanic material on the proximal end, as a finial. Teeth of bear (as here), dog, tiger or boar are often used, as is the horn of the buffalo (a part of one, of course). However most common is the small pronged horn of a deer species still found (albeit no often) in the mountains. Some of these were obtained from animals killed by the hunter. More often, however, they were shed antlers (shed annually, as is seen in deer and moose in the North American forest. The bronze is a very precious metal for the Muong, Thai, Dao, H'mong and other tribal groups. It is linked to their identity as Muong, and helps identify them as members of a specific group and residents of a certain locality. It helps people to fend off evil spirits and protecting them again the bad weather. Little is manufactured in their world, so they do more themselves.

It was attached a picture from two similar knives in this document also, soon as I know to copy this I will show this also.

Sajen · 2nd May 2014, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Thank you so much for posting these. I know nothing about these but am interested in anything shamanic (personal and professional reasons).

My enjoy Jose!

2nd May 2014, 02:04 PM	#7
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,733	I have get a very informed respond from one person of the from Jim given site, thank you very much Mark Rapoport! Here what he have written: i AM HAPPY TO HELP. The one on the right is easy. We have many such (or at least we used to; they are now scarce). They are made for use by hunters, as a utility knife but especially for removing the fat and other things from the inner surface of hides. For that reason, they do not have to be sharp along the long edges. The working edge is the flat short end portion. The knife can be held in the usual way, but the angle formed by the two parts of the deerhorn is ergonomic for inserting a finger or meshing with the web space between two fingers and pushing the end edge along the inside of the hide. I have attached a fact sheet which we prepared for persons who purchase such knives from us. The ones illustrated have copper and brass handles, but engraved ones of silver (such as yours) or silver-plated brass are seen almost as often. These are most often identified as being from the Muong people (different from the Hmong/Mong). However, there is cross-cultural adoption of technology here, and this one might well be from a neighboring group. And here partly what is written in the fact sheet which was attached to his mail: Similarly, the knives that they use for skinning, cutting meat, making traps, etc. is also made totally from locally available materials, worked locally. The blades are always of iron. Iron keeps a sharp edge better than other metals, but rusts quickly. Often, the blade must be replaced with a new one. The “story” of the handle is a much more interesting tale. As with all hunters, luck is an important component of success in hunting. In fact, luck is so important that it cannot “be left to chance”. Some groups have small calendars to specify which animals (or none at all) should be hunted on a given day. Others carry or wear talismans. Incorporating talismans into your tools is another good way. A knife is essential for a hunter (and in fact for men in general) for doing their work, and they are ubiquitous. The groups north and west of Hanoi make these into small works of art. The handles are usually of bronze, brass, silver or a combination of two or three of these metals. Often, the metals are used as decorative elements, either with simple braid designs or (in the case of silver) with floral and other patterns in three dimensions onto the metal. Often, the contrast in color among the metals is used as a decorative element. The most important part, however, is the end of the handle. These are always made from parts of animals that are associated with hunting, masculinity, or power. These include: • Deer antler (uncarved and unshaped) • Bear teeth • Tiger teeth • Ivory • Dog teeth • Bear or tiger claws (rare) The deer antler is the most commonly chosen. The association with speed is obvious, as is the masculinity (since female deer of the species used do not have antlers). The naturally grooved surface is always left intact (in much the same way that it is in manner objects from Bavaria and elsewhere.) It often acquires a very dark patina from use and from the smoke of wood fires. One interesting nuance can be found on those that have one long and one short spike, creating a space within a “check-mark”. This is often used as an ergonomic element, acting as a brace for the fifth finger. Evidence of this is extensive wear and very smooth patina in that area. It is hard to judge age on these objects, since patina and wear is associated more with amount of use than with absolute age. We have been told that some are more than one hundred years old, but most are probably from one-third to one-half that old. Similarly, we are not aware of any characteristics that would allow precise assignment of any given knife to one specific ethnic group. These hunting knives are from Muong men in Hoa Binh province, approximately 80 km from Hanoi. The Muong people live very closely with the Kinh majority people and spread over in different provinces in Vietnam. In addition, they are both descended from the Dong Son people, the first large and complex civilization in Viet Nam (400 B.C. to 100 A.D.)The tribal groups in Vietnam live mainly by growing and hunting. A hunter’s knife is not used to capture or bring down animals. Rather, it is the key tool in cutting bamboo to make traps, dressing animals, and preparing food while in the forest. As is common in society for which hunting is a crucial means of obtaining food, talismans play a role in assuring success of the hunt (and the safety of the hunters). Often, these talismans are parts of animals known for speed, power, or other traits useful for a hunter to acquire. These objects often are used to decorate to their knives and other functional tools. Its handle was made of bronze (or, occasionally, bronze overlaid with silver), with the horn of a small deer or other talismanic material on the proximal end, as a finial. Teeth of bear (as here), dog, tiger or boar are often used, as is the horn of the buffalo (a part of one, of course). However most common is the small pronged horn of a deer species still found (albeit no often) in the mountains. Some of these were obtained from animals killed by the hunter. More often, however, they were shed antlers (shed annually, as is seen in deer and moose in the North American forest. The bronze is a very precious metal for the Muong, Thai, Dao, H'mong and other tribal groups. It is linked to their identity as Muong, and helps identify them as members of a specific group and residents of a certain locality. It helps people to fend off evil spirits and protecting them again the bad weather. Little is manufactured in their world, so they do more themselves. It was attached a picture from two similar knives in this document also, soon as I know to copy this I will show this also. Attached Images Last edited by Sajen; 2nd May 2014 at 03:50 PM.

1st May 2014, 10:43 AM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,733	Thank you as well Jim! And special for your as usual good thoughts about them. You are correct, they are not sharpened so is a ritual use very probable. And I agree with you that the antler hilts seems to have a talismanic purpose. See also the other knife from this area I have posted some time ago: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=antler, the handle from this knife is most probable from the same antler as this both. I will try to contact the people fom the given link, maybe they are able to provide more informations. Regards, Detlef

1st May 2014, 11:48 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,200	Thank you so much for posting these. I know nothing about these but am interested in anything shamanic (personal and professional reasons).

2nd May 2014, 12:33 AM	#3
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Definitely mainland SEA. The curved example is likely Vietnamese--Chinese motifs on the handle and blade make me lean towards that. The other example strikes me a Laotian or northern Thai. Regardless, nice examples.