A cup hilt sword for coments.

fernando · 18th April 2014, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dana_w

... I checked my notes and the gentleman who claims to have once own my sword says he purchased it from Andrew Bottomley (UK), and that it can be found in one of his mail order catalogs from the late 90s or early 2000s. I haven't manage to get my hands on the old catalogs to check....

Don't bother looking in catalogues #7 and #8 from that period (1998 & 2000). I have both and your sword is not there.

M ELEY · 19th April 2014, 03:05 AM

Astounding!!! I really never expected to see another cuphilt so exacting as Fernando's, and here it is! Unfortunately, I have nothing to add to Jim and 'Nando's exceptional information and theories. I am truly fascinated by the details of these two swords, especially the decorations to the rayskin(?) grip. Still wonder if those puzzle-like pieces hold some clue to the origin-

Spanish colonial pieces are often 'brutally' put together, like the bowl on this sword pierced by the tang. Likewise, the side quillons, with their reinforced supports are typical provincial work. What remains interesting to me is that there is also skilled decoration on the piece, as if there had been two makers? When I look at the overall piece, I sort of see what looks like a sword hiding under all of the adornments, if you know what I mean. Could this sword have been re-worked in its life-time, with a newer bowl and supported quillons added. In any case, an excellent piece that literally exudes history! I could see it being later, ca. late 18th as well.

Jim, I have never heard of the Galluchat method for false shagreening! Thanks for that bit of information. I'll do some research on it myself for future reference-

fernando · 19th April 2014, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

... I am truly fascinated by the details of these two swords, especially the decorations to the rayskin (?) grip....

The key to their familiarity, no doubt Mark.

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

... Still wonder if those puzzle-like pieces hold some clue to the origin ...

A challenge to experts

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

...What remains interesting to me is that there is also skilled decoration on the piece, as if there had been two makers? ...

Like if it had a second life ? the later not so operational and more directed to ostentation ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

... Could this sword have been re-worked in its life-time, with a newer bowl and supported quillons added... [/B]

Or the decorations to the bowl also an addition to the original ?

M ELEY · 19th April 2014, 09:51 PM

Aaaaah! Fernando, you are correct with your rhetorical questioning, but what a puzzle it is!

Jim McDougall · 22nd April 2014, 08:56 PM

Hi Mark,
Indeed these are a conundrum, and I think the rhetorically placed idea that the embellishment on the cup bowl is likely added on. I am inclined to follow my suggestion that these were probably Spanish cuphilts or their components obtained by Haitian artisans from Spaniards in the period noted. The silver devices on the faux rayskin seem likely to be 'charms'or amulet type devices likely from the items used in the native folk religion.
Naturally they may simply be aesthetic adornments, however it is tempting to think they were applied more symbolically.
It seems reasonable to think these two swords are of the period noted around the Haitian Rebellion, and compellingly suggest the same artisan or workshop completed them both .

Who knows, in a few years maybe somebody else will turn one up? It happened with the 'Berber' sabres; 'Black Sea yatagans' and the Cuban guabacoa anomalies.

All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 25th April 2014, 04:44 AM

Sorry, I was out of town until today. Back to this fascinating cup-hilt form.

Jim, I had missed your earlier synopsis of this sword's Haitian connection, with its talismanic charms on the grip. Your theory makes sense! There were certainly very specific styles of espadas that we see throughout the colonies. The Cuban style swords, as pictured in Brinkerhoff's volume comes to mind (their distinctive strap-like bars with studs to the guard). All of the Indies undoubtedly had their own styles, much like the Brazilian cutlass that you helped identify on this forum. I do hope you are right that we might see others in the future to pin this form down.

Jim McDougall · 30th April 2014, 07:02 PM

Hi Mark,
I missed your response, thank you so much for the kind words as always. I do recall those espadas we identified as Brazilian, and were of course probably much wider used throughout the 'Spanish Main' of the 19th c.
That was really quite a breakthrough as we had little knowledge on Spanish colonial edged weapons outside those in Mexico and the Southwest.

Interesting on these cuphilts and reading some discussion on another forum, how incredibly little these are known at large. Aside from one writer based in Spain and a brilliant arms scholar, other notes were pretty void .

I like the fact that here we are able to stay with a topic and pursue more data and examples with the goal of actually learning the history of these arms. It seems others just want a label, or wording to sell things.

I always hope more will come in on these, I really do believe these were of the same location and perhaps even workshop.

19th April 2014, 03:05 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Astounding!!! I really never expected to see another cuphilt so exacting as Fernando's, and here it is! Unfortunately, I have nothing to add to Jim and 'Nando's exceptional information and theories. I am truly fascinated by the details of these two swords, especially the decorations to the rayskin(?) grip. Still wonder if those puzzle-like pieces hold some clue to the origin- Spanish colonial pieces are often 'brutally' put together, like the bowl on this sword pierced by the tang. Likewise, the side quillons, with their reinforced supports are typical provincial work. What remains interesting to me is that there is also skilled decoration on the piece, as if there had been two makers? When I look at the overall piece, I sort of see what looks like a sword hiding under all of the adornments, if you know what I mean. Could this sword have been re-worked in its life-time, with a newer bowl and supported quillons added. In any case, an excellent piece that literally exudes history! I could see it being later, ca. late 18th as well. Jim, I have never heard of the Galluchat method for false shagreening! Thanks for that bit of information. I'll do some research on it myself for future reference- Last edited by M ELEY; 19th April 2014 at 03:15 AM.

19th April 2014, 09:51 PM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Aaaaah! Fernando, you are correct with your rhetorical questioning, but what a puzzle it is!

22nd April 2014, 08:56 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hi Mark, Indeed these are a conundrum, and I think the rhetorically placed idea that the embellishment on the cup bowl is likely added on. I am inclined to follow my suggestion that these were probably Spanish cuphilts or their components obtained by Haitian artisans from Spaniards in the period noted. The silver devices on the faux rayskin seem likely to be 'charms'or amulet type devices likely from the items used in the native folk religion. Naturally they may simply be aesthetic adornments, however it is tempting to think they were applied more symbolically. It seems reasonable to think these two swords are of the period noted around the Haitian Rebellion, and compellingly suggest the same artisan or workshop completed them both . Who knows, in a few years maybe somebody else will turn one up? It happened with the 'Berber' sabres; 'Black Sea yatagans' and the Cuban guabacoa anomalies. All the best, Jim

25th April 2014, 04:44 AM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Sorry, I was out of town until today. Back to this fascinating cup-hilt form. Jim, I had missed your earlier synopsis of this sword's Haitian connection, with its talismanic charms on the grip. Your theory makes sense! There were certainly very specific styles of espadas that we see throughout the colonies. The Cuban style swords, as pictured in Brinkerhoff's volume comes to mind (their distinctive strap-like bars with studs to the guard). All of the Indies undoubtedly had their own styles, much like the Brazilian cutlass that you helped identify on this forum. I do hope you are right that we might see others in the future to pin this form down.

30th April 2014, 07:02 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hi Mark, I missed your response, thank you so much for the kind words as always. I do recall those espadas we identified as Brazilian, and were of course probably much wider used throughout the 'Spanish Main' of the 19th c. That was really quite a breakthrough as we had little knowledge on Spanish colonial edged weapons outside those in Mexico and the Southwest. Interesting on these cuphilts and reading some discussion on another forum, how incredibly little these are known at large. Aside from one writer based in Spain and a brilliant arms scholar, other notes were pretty void . I like the fact that here we are able to stay with a topic and pursue more data and examples with the goal of actually learning the history of these arms. It seems others just want a label, or wording to sell things. I always hope more will come in on these, I really do believe these were of the same location and perhaps even workshop.