Incendiary device? Grenade? Or what?

Matchlock · 18th March 2014, 11:24 AM

Hi Mark,

You called and here I am, right at your service

,

What you've got here may well be a small clay hand grenade of ca. 15th to 18th c. type. This does not necessarily mean that your little clay guy is of Western provenance; it may be Oriental and go back to ancient times when Greek Fire was employed.

As I tried to show, hand grenades often even consisted of greenish to yellowish glass in the 17th and 18th centuries. I attached photos of some, together with clay grenades, from the vast supplies of Forchtenstein Castle, Austria, and two period illustrations.

There is a very detailed recent Austrian study by Franz Felberbauer, "Die Handgranaten der Grenadiere der Fürsten Esterházy aus Gusseisen und Ton im Zeughaus der Burg Forchtenstein" (the cast-iron and clay hand grenades for the grenadiers of the Princes Esterházy, at the Armory of Forchtenstein Castle), in: Waffen und Kostümkunde, 2012, vol. 2, pp. 181-220, and 2014, vol. 1, pp. 1-52.
I scanned a few images from that essay and posted them here for you.

The two photos at the bottom of the clay grenades in the glass case, together with the two model cannon carriages, I took some 25 years ago in the Fortress Oberhaus, Passau, Lower Bavaria.

Please see also my thread on incendiary items, grenades, quoits etc.:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7085

Best,
Michael

fernando · 18th March 2014, 02:58 PM

What about dimensions, Michl ?
Isn't Mark's example too small for a grenade or equivalent device ?
Say yes ... so that i can propose him to dispatch it to me

Matchlock · 18th March 2014, 03:10 PM

Well, Nando,

It is tiny, indeed.

On the other hand, if I remember it correctly, the 1,000 year-old samples from the Egyptian period of the Fatimids were quite small and delicate as well. And the 17th c. clay hand grenades at Forchtentein Castle, Austria are of an average diameter of only ca. 10 cm.
I am about to get into contact with a real scholar on this field of hand grenades and will ask his opinion. He did research on a great number of clay and glass grenades kept in the Forchtenstein Armory. Maybe we will all know better then.

Best,
Michl

fernando · 18th March 2014, 03:20 PM

Whatever you find, keep it secret from Captain Mark

Marcus den toom · 18th March 2014, 03:34 PM

hahah, maybe we can team up Nando and go dig for our own grenades

fernando · 18th March 2014, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus den toom

hahah, maybe we can team up Nando and go dig for our own grenades

Don't tease me; i may take it seriously

Marcus den toom · 18th March 2014, 07:49 PM

Well Nando, when you have some spare time...

But untill than, something i believe to be a grenade thrower or a very cruel trick on a homeless person.
http://dla.library.upenn.edu/dla/med...urrentpage=195

18th March 2014, 11:24 AM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Mark, You called and here I am, right at your service , What you've got here may well be a small clay hand grenade of ca. 15th to 18th c. type. This does not necessarily mean that your little clay guy is of Western provenance; it may be Oriental and go back to ancient times when Greek Fire was employed. As I tried to show, hand grenades often even consisted of greenish to yellowish glass in the 17th and 18th centuries. I attached photos of some, together with clay grenades, from the vast supplies of Forchtenstein Castle, Austria, and two period illustrations. There is a very detailed recent Austrian study by Franz Felberbauer, "Die Handgranaten der Grenadiere der Fürsten Esterházy aus Gusseisen und Ton im Zeughaus der Burg Forchtenstein" (the cast-iron and clay hand grenades for the grenadiers of the Princes Esterházy, at the Armory of Forchtenstein Castle), in: Waffen und Kostümkunde, 2012, vol. 2, pp. 181-220, and 2014, vol. 1, pp. 1-52. I scanned a few images from that essay and posted them here for you. The two photos at the bottom of the clay grenades in the glass case, together with the two model cannon carriages, I took some 25 years ago in the Fortress Oberhaus, Passau, Lower Bavaria. Please see also my thread on incendiary items, grenades, quoits etc.: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7085 Best, Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 18th March 2014 at 02:01 PM.

18th March 2014, 02:58 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	What about dimensions, Michl ? Isn't Mark's example too small for a grenade or equivalent device ? Say yes ... so that i can propose him to dispatch it to me

18th March 2014, 03:10 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Well, Nando, It is tiny, indeed. On the other hand, if I remember it correctly, the 1,000 year-old samples from the Egyptian period of the Fatimids were quite small and delicate as well. And the 17th c. clay hand grenades at Forchtentein Castle, Austria are of an average diameter of only ca. 10 cm. I am about to get into contact with a real scholar on this field of hand grenades and will ask his opinion. He did research on a great number of clay and glass grenades kept in the Forchtenstein Armory. Maybe we will all know better then. Best, Michl

18th March 2014, 03:20 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Whatever you find, keep it secret from Captain Mark

18th March 2014, 03:34 PM	#5
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 525	hahah, maybe we can team up Nando and go dig for our own grenades

18th March 2014, 07:49 PM	#7
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 525	Well Nando, when you have some spare time... But untill than, something i believe to be a grenade thrower or a very cruel trick on a homeless person. http://dla.library.upenn.edu/dla/med...urrentpage=195