European Piha Kaetta

[ArmsAndAntiques]

Some more information on this specific dagger, which is quite a famous example of three collaborators work.

The decorator Sevin , the sculptor and the founder Attarge Barbedienne combined their talents to the production of this dagger. Several works produced by their association are found in large French and foreign museums. BARBEDIENNE Ferdinand (1810-1892) founded his house in 1839 and established his art foundry in Paris 30 boulevard Poissonnière . The combination of Art and Industry , promoted under the Second Empire , placed at the head of the largest manufacture of bronze art in Paris during the second half of the nineteenth century. Its production was rewarded at Universal Exhibitions . Louis -Constant Sevin (1821-1888) was a sculptor and decorator and was from 1855 to 1888, the main collaborator Ferdinand Barbedienne whose formidable success rested on its considerable activity (two thousand drawings listed ) . Sévin's talent was recognized and award-winning , including at the Universal Exhibitions in London in 1862 and Paris in 1867 and 1878. Attarge Désiré (1820-1878) was a renowned sculptor, much appreciated by Sevin. In 1855 , he entered the service of Barbedienne who praised his art by this comment "under the skillful and intelligent hand which the metal softens and takes on delicate forms."

[David]

Am i missing something? Why are we making a big deal about a cast reproduction that, to my eyes at least, doesn't seem to hold a candle to fine examples of the real thing?
To me this is something to get excited about, not the cast repro above.

[Rick]

A matter of legitimacy then .

[David]

Originally Posted by Rick

A matter of legitimacy then .

Well yes, not just culturally, but also in execution because as far as i know real Piha Kaettas are not cast in one piece in this manner. This is kind of like a Franklin Mint replica to me. A bit pretty on the surface perhaps, but with no soul or substance.
To fill others in on you remark Rick, perhaps we should direct them you the discussion currently on the keris forum.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...754#post164754

[VANDOO]

I AGREE WITH DAVID THE WORKMANSHIP AND TRADITIONAL TECKNIQUES USED EXCEED THIS FRENCH MADE ITEM. BOTH ARE NICE BUT ONE IS FORIGN MADE USING NON TRADITIONAL TECKNIQUES AND MATERIALS. I PERSONALLY WOULD PREFER THE TRADITIONAL PHIA OVER THE FRENCH ART PIECE WITH FAMOUS NAMES BUT BOTH ITEMS WOULD BE WORTHY OF COLLECTING. THE FRENCH MADE ONE SHOULD APPEAL TO THOSE WHO COLLECT ITEMS MADE BY THE FAMOUS ARTISTS WHO CONTRIBUTED. PERHAPS ANDY WARHOL COULD HAVE MADE SOMETHING CEYLON'ISH BUT THE ITEMS VALUE WOULD BE SECONDARY TO THE NAME OF THE ARTIST AND WHO KNOWS WHAT CULTURE AND TECKNIQUE IT WOULD HAVE EXHIBITED.

[VANDOO]

DOUBLE POST

[ariel]

Not downplaying the beauty and the authentic techniques of the original Piha Kaettas, I am perfectly content with the European thing.
It is, IMHO, a nice homage to the Ceylonese original and does not pretend to be one: it is even signed by the master. It is a curiosity in the same sense as using Japanese motives in contemporary European art and fashion, or Japanese pictures of the late 19th/20th centuries employing purely European techniques. Weapons are no different: the Russians made yataghans in Zlatoust, the Venetians copied Moroccan Nimchas ( or was it the other way around? :-)), the Indonesians might have copied their Kerises from Indian examples, and the best contemporary examples of Nihonto are being made by Western masters and are commanding high prices even in Japan.

Art has no borders, and as long as it is not an outright deceitful fake , it is perfectly legitimate and should be judged on its own merits.

[ariel]

Double post.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by David

Am i missing something? Why are we making a big deal about a cast reproduction that, to my eyes at least, doesn't seem to hold a candle to fine examples of the real thing?
To me this is something to get excited about, not the cast repro above.

Actually I believe you are, and interesting to see this intriguing European made example of these outstanding Sinhalese knives. This posting was from back in the great discussion days and anything that caught the fancy of B.I. was hardly presented lightly. What we are seeing here is not meant to be a comparison, but a historic instance reflecting international diplomacy and trade and much of what we study here has a great deal to do with history.
I think Ariel has expressed this perspective perfectly.

A&A, outstanding information and follow up on this knife and thank you so much for bringing this thread up and sharing it here. Well done!

[David]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Actually I believe you are, and interesting to see this intriguing European made example of these outstanding Sinhalese knives. This posting was from back in the great discussion days and anything that caught the fancy of B.I. was hardly presented lightly. What we are seeing here is not meant to be a comparison, but a historic instance reflecting international diplomacy and trade and much of what we study here has a great deal to do with history.
I think Ariel has expressed this perspective perfectly.

We will have to agree to disagree then. While it may be interesting to discuss how and why this copy was used in international diplomacy and the history of that i see no such discussion on that subject taking place here. Why was this piece created in the first place? Was this a presentation piece? To whom and when? I might see some merit in that discussion if there was some historical perspective to it. As an object on to itself i see nothing particularly fantastic about this piece.
I also disagree that this is the same as outside cultural motifs being incorporated into the art of European culture. Those artist still created something original. This is just a copy and IMHO it has no ethnographic integrity. The Javanese keris may well have it's influences in some Indian dagger form, but it is not a copy of that form. If it were we would find keris forms in India. Those India daggers served as an inspiration for development and the keris evolved in Java as a unique form. And if the Russians made yataghans in Zlatoust, the Venetians copied Moroccan Nimchas, did they cast them in one piece to artsy copper paperweights or were they forging real bladed weapons for real use?

[Jim McDougall]

Very well put rebuttal David, and now that you have expanded on your comments I can see your perspective, which is interesting, and of course distinctly your opinion. I did not mean to imply this particular piece was actually used in a diplomatic role, but that it was clearly produced during a period where colonial and trade activity had attracted great interest in items of exotica.
As you well point out, this item indeed does not have any specific integrity from an ethnographic posture, that is, it is not culturally representative per se. However it does seem interesting to me, and apparently to others, as I have indicated earlier, from perhaps an artistic and somewhat historic point of view . Antique Arms clearly reflected his interest by reviving this thread of nearly 8 years ago by sharing data which was not only pertinent but extremely helpful in updating this thread, exactly the kind of action many of us here hope for in building collective and archived knowledge on many topics.

Colin, thank you so much for the excellent example you have posted of the Maori club, which illustrates perfectly exactly what I was trying to point out.

I think we are all aware of copies and reproductions of arms and armor, which of course are typically regarded as quite unimportant in the view of those of us who are historically attuned in the collection of arms. However many examples of such arms from earlier periods have actually become antiquities in their own right, case in point those from the atelier of Ernst Schmitt of Germany. Here the copies of medieval and renaissance arms and armor, skillfully crafted and carefully researched were so well executed that many ended up in museum displays years later. While admittedly 'copies', they have gained their own place in the field of arms collecting.

I do see your point however in noting that the character of this piece does not comply with the production of the original weapons in that it is more aligned with artistic merit than sound functionality. I would note here that this is often the case in many weapons of the 18th century forward such as many court type swords and fraternal swords, which were distinctly accoutrements of fashion and regalia, but still count as collectible arms in many fields.

Thank you for explaining your position David, and while we agree to disagree here, it is good that we are able to elaborate on the reasons for our opinions for the benefit of discussion.

[Oriental-Arms]

A side note, I have seen several similar piha by the same caster. Just as an example see attached. Heavy silver plated brass, 35 cm long

[spiral]

To me their nice curiosity's or wall hangers, but hardly arms....

There not intended to be functional, so there not arms.

spiral