Noth African sword

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

It is what it is and it has a face. Usually when paired on face is open eyed the other winking. As I already stated these symbols can take on different meanings in different cultures, however the retention of the facial features speaks strongly to the lineage of the mark.

A new moon as far as I'm aware in Islamic art is not illustrated with a face... As seen in the one example you linked an image of where it is simply a crescent.

In the context of African blades the mark retained much of its original form because it was a hallmark of quality and not merely an illustrative symbol.

In short, marks can take on multiple meanings, sometimes outside of their original context. But when this much of the form is retained it speaks volumes as to the influence of the original application.

Salaams Iain,
So you agree that what we have here is quite an interesting linkage back to perhaps Juan Martinez, Toledo mid 16th C or Peter Munch Solingen 1595-1660, thus, a European Sword mark which has been transmitted onto trade blades and copied by local smiths all over the African region and Red Sea, Yemen etc in the last 250 years. The precisely named "man in the moon" insignia being copied and as a mark of excellence onto blades in the region and beyond. Originally probably placed with a magical quality being inferred... and reflected somewhat in the Islamic sense of Talismanic protection in the crescent moon illustration...with and without nose eyes mouth...

Thus it becomes a new moon in the afro/arabian sense from an original European man in the moon design.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Iain,
So you agree that what we have here is quite an interesting linkage back to perhaps Peter Munch and a European Sword mark which has been transmitted onto trade blades and copied by local smiths all over the African region and Red Sea, Yemen etc. The precisely named "man in the moon" insignia being copied and as a mark of excellence onto blades in the region and beyond. Originally probably placed with a magical quality being inferred... and reflected somewhat in the Islamic sense of Talismanic protection in the crescent moon illustration...with and without nose eyes mouth...

Thus it becomes a new moon in the afro/arabian sense from an original European man in the moon design.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

I agree there's a linkage, although I wouldn't attribute it solely to Munch. He was only one maker to use the symbol.

I don't agree it necessarily becomes a "new moon" in the African context. That's an over simplification in my opinion.

[CharlesS]

You may find this picture helpful. The flintlock rifle style suggests this picture was taken in Morocco, but does not necessarily limit that style of sword's usage to that area alone.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by CharlesS

You may find this picture helpful. The flintlock rifle style suggests this picture was taken in Morocco, but does not necessarily limit that style of sword's usage to that area alone.

Nice pic Charles, which seems to show an s'boula. These are usually slimmer than the piece at the start of this thread, but obviously a familial relation in hilt form. Perhaps the piece in this thread could be classed as one as well.

[CharlesS]

Iain,

I think if we can imagine the original sword in the thread with its complete, undamaged stylized "I" hilt as in the version below it could easily fall into the s'boula category. It seems as if this sword's lower hilt, or guard, uses leather as covering where they would more typically be brass covered.

The hilt certainly seems closer to that to me than, say, a kaskara or takouba....don't you think so? Also note the mid hilt bolt that is generally universally seen on s'boulas and compare the zig-zag carving midway on that example to the carving on the wooden portion of the hilt below.

The blade is, indeed, wider than the example below, but it has been cut down, clearly. Perhaps it was an attempt to mimic the s'boula???

[Iain]

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Iain,

I think if we can imagine the original sword in the thread with its complete, undamaged stylized "I" hilt it could easily fall into the s'boula category. The hilt certainly seems closer to that to me than, say, a kaskara or takouba....don't you think so? Also note the mid hilt bolt that is generally universally seen on s'boulas.

Agree completely Charles. It's definitely from the Berber sphere. I see these pop up in French auctions from time to time, all with the same tip style. So it seems like an established type.

[CharlesS]

Just curious Iain....do they fetch very much at French auctions??? I am guessing not. The style in general won't win many blade beauty contests!

[Jim McDougall]

It is interesting to see the great developing discussion here especially pertaining to the markings, which of course have been a key fascination of mine for more years than I can say. I am also glad to see agreement in my notes (post #5) suggesting the s'boula hilt connection, which as noted could place this refurbished blade in many regional contexts throughout the wide Berber sphere. As Charles has noted, the occurrence of a weapon in a certain place or with a particular ethnic or tribal individual does not necessarily establish that as its indigenous provenance. The diffusion of ethnographic weapons through trade, warfare and often nomadic movements makes such classifications not only typically unlikely, but profoundly speculative.

Returning to the markings, especially the 'man in the moon' (known as dukari in Saharan parlance usually in pairs on takouba and occasionally on some kaskara in Sudan)....I think it is well established that this image or device has been adopted rather universally in native symbolism. While the original 'moon' character was part of a type of talismanic motif that evolved from various occult and magical followings, believed to have originated probably in Spain, it was soon widely used in Germany.

As trade blades from Germany (the preponderance of volume) entered various centers and diffused into other regions via caravan routes, clearly the presence of such marks were emphasized by merchants to signify the quality of the blades. As these blades dispersed into tribal elements, the markings became often seen in the visual perspective of the folk religion symbolism. There can of course be many interpretations of what these might be as perceived temporally by these typically highly superstitious and not necessarily highly educated tribesmen.

What is key is that the presence of these symbols became a matter of imbuement rather than distinct imagery or iconography. What was important was what the marking or its presence was supposed to induce in the blade, not what it was necessarily supposed to be. Over time these typically paired 'man in the moon' became degenerated in form to the point of being unrecognizable, but still their placement served its purpose .

I think the occasion of these kinds of markings often appearing only on one side of the blade could signify apotropaic importance as protection from evil or malevolence was a prevalent concern in tribal cultures. The outer or 'exposed' face of the blade (sometimes scabbards as well) would have talismanic devices to ward off these forces. The flyssa is a good example of such geometric devices but it is on both blade faces. I think that the images in Briggs note similar mark grouping on a nimcha on one side only . On many Arab swords, the 'aghreb' (=scorpion) appears only on outer side to deflect evil eye.

[blue lander]

Thanks, that hilt looks quite similar although it doesn't seem to have the leather "bolster" mine has.

Does anybody have an example of what this blade mighty have looked like before it was cut down? Maybe something like this Gurade?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10460