Polishing Metal Parts

[trenchwarfare]

I'm trying to understand something here. I have noticed a tendency, to polish brass, silver, copper, and other metals found on ethnographic edged weapon hilts, and scabbards. In the firearms world, and collecting of western military weaponry this is highly frowned upon. A polished Henry rifle brass frame, kills the value by at least 50%. Same is true on other brass firearm furniture.

I understand wanting to make the item as pleasing to the eye as possible. We all want everything to look as good as it can. But, when the blade is pitted, and the wood/horn is worm eaten. Shiny metal just looks out of place to me. I do believe in arresting active rust, and removing excessive crud. Not trying to ruffle any feathers, just want to understand the etiquette.

It may be the same as Japanese sword blades. They can be completely redone by a professional, and increase in value. Antique firearms, No.

[ariel]

It may well depend on how we look at our collection pieces: HISTORICAL weapons, or historical WEAPONS. The former emphasizes the life and adventures behind it, the latter - it's pristine state and military readiness.


I am with you. Patina is a kiss of time.

[David]

I believe it also depends upon exactly what kind of edged weapon we are discussing. You mention Japanese weapons for instance which are always best presented in full polish. I believe that to a certain extent this is also true of Indonesian keris. It is a living blade culture (keris are still traditional worn in particular ceremonial situations). Tarnished silver and brass fittings and chewed up wooden sheaths could be seen as a disrespect to the blade.
This is probably less true of Civil and Revolutionary War swords.
So i don't think there is one pat answer that applies to all edged weapons collection.

[Battara]

Ariel and David have good points. In US Civil War, some collectors LOVE beaten up pieces because they have seen battle.

As a general rule of thumb, there is some debate on brass. Bronze should NEVER be polished and the patina is crucial. Brass should also have some patina as well, though not as crucial as bronze.

However, when it comes to silver or gold, these are in a different class in the antique collecting world. Generally silver and gold were meant to be shiny and are usually polished, which does in fact raise the value of antiques, including weapons.

Again these are general rules of thumb in my experience (and the literature, collectors, Antiques Roadshow, etc).

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by ariel

It may well depend on how we look at our collection pieces: HISTORICAL weapons, or historical WEAPONS. The former emphasizes the life and adventures behind it, the latter - it's pristine state and military readiness.


I am with you. Patina is a kiss of time.

To draw from Ariel’s quote, but knowing everything in life is personal choice, my personal choice is to improve the visual appearance to that as close to what it would have been in the day and remove traces of neglect.

In the day, when in the hands of warriors, these were kept in pristine state for military readiness and this is what should be preserved in my opinion.

The former aspect as Ariel noted, does not in my opinion emphasize life and adventure. In most cases it is 100+ years of neglect and failure to preserve.

There are certain things that shouldn't be removed such as Japanning and the like and sometimes people get these aspects confused with patina.
Saying this though, there are many weapons which should never be touched and many more that should be left to experts in the field.

Where would our museums be without restoration and preservation?
http://www.metmuseum.org/about-the-m...rmor/slideshow
In another 100 years from now how much worse off would our collections be if there were not attended to?

Gavin

[DaveS]

I can't remember what reference book it was, but it stated ,especially
in the Islamic countries that they were immensly proud of their weapons
and that the silver would have been kept polished, the gold would have been
cleaned, and that the blades would have been either polished or etched.
I think some if not most of the pieces we see today on the market were
sitting in a wherehouse for fifty or sixty years not being maintained,or
they were brought back by some tourist or military person who had not the
slightest idea of how to care for them. IMHO, this is why so many of these
pieces look "ratted out" As for those antique dealers who don't dare touch
anything for fear they might lose a dollar, that is just how their world works
but as far as antique weapons, i don't think it's the same. Again, just my
opinion..........Dave.

[trenchwarfare]

I never said, don't clean anything. Active rust must be arrested, verdigris removed, etc. And yes, in their day of usage, weapons were highly polished, from end to end. Even military muskets were left "in the white", to encourage daily cleaning. (And give the soldiers something to do.) If an edged weapon has an excellent blade, yes polished other bits look great. But, when the blade is pitted, to me, polished bits look out of place.

I AM an antiques dealer, and I vigorously clean everything I sell. It's all about presentation. Preservation is langniappe. But, I never polish metals, other than steel. If it's already clean. If a blade has a nice pleasing plumb patina, I oil it, and leave it alone. Pitted blades are just cleaned of rust, and oiled. I never polish brass, copper, or silver. If it's black, I just knock enough black off, so you can see what kind of metal it is. But, that's just me. If the next owner wants to polish things, they can knock themselves out.

Now, if a mass produced item like a bayonet is too far gone for cleaning, I will do a complete restoration. (If it's value is worth the effort.) Just to try to regain a little dignity for the poor thing. Even at that, it will never look new, so "patina" is applied, after the work is done. The piece is then represented as a restoration.

[RDGAC]

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

Where would our museums be without restoration and preservation?

Fair question, but the two are entirely different approaches to the problem. Preservation is the prevention of further decay and damage to the object; the act of stopping. Restoration is the undoing of decay and damage to the object; the act of reversing.

The current museum vogue is mainly for preservation, rather than restoration; on the whole, I tend to agree with that. To my mind, our prime task is to preserve what's been left to us, warts and all; that "neglect" you describe, somewhat sad though it may be, is part of the object's history, part of its authenticity. Its very value, historically, may lie in the travails we bemoan.

There are, I think, cases where restoration is appropriate; for example, as Trenchwarfare suggests, if the object is very similar or identical to an abundant item (ordinary AKM derivatives spring to mind); perhaps one wishes to show an "as-new" example to provide a useful context, by which viewers et al can appreciate the process of decay, the effect of a working life on an object.

I've found myself quietly contemplating (for nothing moves swiftly here) what to do with a jezail I've mentioned on here several times; as you might read (if y'fancy wandering through my posts, for some inscrutable reason ) it has suffered extensive corrosion damage to its barrel, an octagonal, pattern-welded Damascus item which could, potentially, be quite beautiful if suitably restored. That damage occurred, not during the barrel's working life, but when it lay, stored, in a garage, somewhere in England. Question is, is that damage historically relevant or not?

In this case, my conclusion has been negative; the damage was the result of careless storage and should be reversed as far as possible, having only been caused long after any other damages the barrel might have received during its working life. Moreover, there's no shortage of rust-encrusted gun barrels in the world!

Ultimately it's the ol' Theseus' Ship thing again. I tend toward the "Essence" idea, but better than preserving the essence of the ship is preserving its timbers, spars and rigging, full stop - or so says I, me hearties.

- M

[kino]

I say if you're going to polish and etch the blades on your Moro Sandata, polish the silver, brass and copper fittings.

I believe copper and brass were used in lieu of gold. If you want it to simulate gold it has to be polished.