A 1548 Nuremberg Dagger-grip Over-and-Under Double Wheellock Pistol

[Raf]

Sorry Michael. The point seems to have got lost somewhere. I wasnt suggesting that the push button pan release ; the presence or lack of it , was of any particular geographic or chronological significance.

It seems from about 1535, and certainly by 1550 the wheelock in Germany had achieved all its classic features . But without , as far as I am aware much evidence of a development stage. In contrast , in early Italian wheelocks , we see a much wider range of solutions to problems that look more like a developing idea. Such as single locking bars (Da Vinci ) , matchlock style slot in wheel pancovers, exposed mechanisms etc.This is not a who invented the wheelock argument but it might be an argument for independant lines of development .The question was whether we should regard these Italian locks as being earlier than the earliest known German examples or simply that the Italians did things differently and for whatever reason were slower to adopt more mechanically sophisticated (and safer!) solutions.

And yes , their is I think a simple theory why push button pan covers might have been considered a desirable neccesity on some classes of firearm and an optional extra on others....

[Matchlock]

Oh yeah, Raf, I see and it's my turn to be sorry now.

On the other hand, South Eastern European countries such as Hungaria - think of the Komorn swamps and River Danube finds! - or Romania went their own separate ways in developing spectacuar wheellocks as well. For more than 30 years, in my theories I have ardently pleaded for accepting parallel individual strategies/lines of access to the wheellock development, so I am all in your corner as far as this is concerned!

I do bear my doubts though as to whether to look upon early Italian wheellocks as 'earlier in time' than Germanic ones. More archaic they may seem, no doubt.

E.g., please cf. the locks of the earliest datable wheellock/crossbow combination in the Bavarian National Museum Munich, ca. 1521-26 (my personal guess is ca. 1525+, and I have handled it several times, alas without being allowed to take the lock out), and the earliest dated wheellocks in existence, a small Augsburg Marquardt arquebus of Charles V d. 1530, and another, very finely executed, of identical provenance and dated 1531, plus a completely different combined wheellock and snap-tinderlock Munich arquebus in the Liège Musée de l'Armée, dated 1532, the etching by Ambrosius Gemlich, plus an early-1530's wheellock gun in the Royal Armouries Leeds and some detached mechanisms in the Dresden Armory.
Thus we have a line of datet or closely datable wheellocks from ca. 1525-35.


Some of the wheellock combination weapons in the Doges Palace in Venice may be from the 1520's or 1530's but they are not dated, and their earliest combined crossbow and gun seems so archaic that one might assume it was made in the first decade of the 16th century (ca. 1505, as one authority believed), which is probably not true ... I have always tentatively assigned a dating of '2nd to 3rd decade 16th c.' to them, and their axe and gun combination is dated 1551 ...




P.S. It is great to have finally found somebody with a good insight in early wheellocks!!!



Best,
Michael

[Raf]

Thanks Michael for a reflective and informative response. I think I agree with you. Individual areas or centers of production have to be viewed as having their own histories and its probably unsound to read to much into comparisons. Therefore I agree that ' primitive ' italian locks are probably in reality no earlier , or not much earlier than their more sophisticated German counterparts . But they do illustrate the conceptual stages in the development of the idea. I am familiar with the Palallazo Ducale crosbow / wheelocks but not their German counterparts . Any pictures ?

[Matchlock]

Hi Raf,


Here are all the images that the Bavarian National Museum Munich allowed me to take of their famous wheellock/crossbow combination of ca. 1521-6, the barrel signed in etching FERDINANDUS, over a span of more than 30 years (!). Some of them were taken using flashlight, which of course is illegal ... Who cares anyway? The crossbow won't mind, either, and I needed the information !

I remember posting some of them here on the forum but the search button cannot find a single one! GRRRRRRRRR !!!!



Do you have any photos of the Venice pieces?




Best,
m

[Matchlock]

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[Matchlock]

m

[Matchlock]

A few details of decoration:

the Cross of Burgundy and the Chain of the Order of the Golden Fleece (Kette des Ordens vom Goldenen Vlies).


m

[Raf]

Thanks for the picks .Did our posts cross somewhere? Compared to the Venice crossbow / wheelocks ( c 1510 ) the german version looks like its from another planet. Rather makes my point . With the exception of the hooked pancovers these early locks have all the classic features of later locks and one is left wondering where the development took place, how it was so rapid and why we don't see in German locks the same kind of 'primitive' features we see elsewhere. Please reasure me that the B and W pictures of Royal Armouries X11 1566 is a modern copy. Not the orrigional lock attacked by the Conservator from Hell...

[Matchlock]

I'm not sure what picture you mean but this ca. 1530 Augsburg/Munich lock is in the Dresden Armory and is preserved in the same perfectly original condition as the gun with the same makers mark (a dolphin??) on both lock and barrel of a long arquebus in Leeds, the stock all veneered in natural staghorn (bought via Fischer, Lucerne, in 1932).

In the 1870's, Moritz Thierbach had a line drawing of it made for his work Entwickelung der Handfeuerwaffen ...


Just because they are almost 500 years old these items do not necessarily have to look like pieces of dirt or as if they were excavated.
E.g., take the famous Monk's gun ...



I do keep many extremely early items in my collection that still are in perfect overall as-new condition (plus patina). I bought them because they were in such a good condition!



m

[Matchlock]

Back to the roots for a moment, meaning the short double-barreled arquebus from post #1.
A very similar small arquebus (nowadays commonly called a pistol), the iron parts ca. 1545-50, of similar dimensions (overall length 46.5 cm) but sadly newly stocked in 1560's style, was sold at a German auction: Hermann Historica, Munich, 33rd sale, 22nd March 1996, lot 966. The almost identical lock, the prite dogs and pierced wheel covers were characteristic of the mid-16th c. Nuremberg style.


Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Hi Raf,

I was beginning to like our discussions a lot - would you still care to respond?
Do you know what the tiny wing nut to the left of the wheel of the BNM (Bavarian National Museum) was meant for? And the vertical push button? I do ...

Best,
Michael