Greek translation requested

RobT · 29th October 2005, 10:59 PM

Hi All,
I have a small knife (10.25" [26cm] overall length, 5.25" [13.3cm] blade length) from the city of Chania on the isle of Crete. The hilt scales are polished bone fastened to the tang with brass pins. The tapered spacer that separates the scales is one piece of unadorned brass. A pair of brass bolsters flank the base of the blade. The blade bears a three line, hand engraved inscription. I am only certain about the last two words which are "Chania" and "1952". The gist of the three translations I have gotten so far is; " I'm a tough guy who's not afraid of anything as long as I have my knife" and "remembrance of Chania 1952". All the translators have seemed a bit vague as to the exact translation, perhaps because parts of the inscription are very faint. With this in mind I have attempted to transcribe the inscription and have attached a picture of my efforts. To those of you able to read and write Greek, please don't laugh. Yannis stated in a previous thread that the presence of the inscription and date indicates a piece made for the tourist market. This is perhaps true. Certainly the condition and patina indicate that the date on the blade is a fair indication of the age of the piece but to me the entire assemblage appears to be too plainly and well wrought for the tourist market. I would like to hear the comments of other forum members on this issue. I would like also to know how this knife was used for fighting. (All three Greeks I spoke to were very certain that this type of knife was used for fighting.) To me, the blade appears too light and small to be an effective slash weapon but the hilt design looks like it would cause the the user's hand to slide up the blade on impact of a thrust. One Greek I spoke to identified the knife as a "machera".
Sincerely,
RobT

Yannis · 30th October 2005, 10:11 AM

This is a Cretan knife. This kind of knifes started as form sometime in 18th or early 19th century and they were part of daily dress of men of the island. In some villages women used to wear it too. At least in one village it was tradition to offer a knife like this to a girl in her engagement as symbol of protection. There is a lot symbolism on this knife so it was (and it still is) an important gift between friends.

The art of knife making was so good in late 19th century and early 20th that some pieces were really jewels. Rich and important people had knifes with ivory hilts and full silver scabbards. On these scabbards sometimes we see symbols of faith (Christian or Islamic) so we can guess the ethnicity of the owner. A lot of these pieces were given as presents to foreigners.

The good old blades have T cross sections and if the have engravings they are only symbols and maybe a date in Christian or Islamic calendar.

Words on a blade almost sure indicate 20th century. Names of places like Chania indicate 1950 and on. The special word “Enthimion” (memento – remembrance), like on this blade, indicates that it is made for tourist market. This is an old piece so maybe it is not far from the original ones. Today’s tourist pieces are junk.

Till 1980 in Chania there were few famous bladesmiths who were doing fine handforged blades for customers who knew the difference between hand made and industrial pieces. Today there are some bladesmiths who make good knifes for use but they don’t care about decoration and few new bladesmiths who try to revive the tradition of the fine pieces, but it is hard.

About the use of the Cretan knife. The real ones are very good to kill and flay an animal. I have seen shepherds up on the mountains to do it amazing fast, approximately 2 minutes for a goat. I suppose it is also good in a fight. In Crete as in Corsica there is a tradition of vendetta, still alive in our days, sporadically. But they use fire weapons. The island is heavy armed with illegal pistols and automatic rifles. Almost every family has at least one, some they have big collections. If you ask them why, they reply “We have fight so many enemies in the past that we cannot allow ourselves to be unarmed if they come again”.

On this particular blade we see a poem on. It is the kind of sort poem called “Mantinada” that is only in Crete and it has to be smart. These poems could be serious as death or funny as a joke but they have to be smart, unpredictable. The good poets of this kind of poetry still receive good social status on the island and they are hundreds of them in all genders and classes.

Now the translation, maybe with few small mistakes because the writing on this blade has erroneous spelling.
“If you are alone go away and if you are ten come here
my knife fears nobody”
“Memento Chania Crete 1952”
Brave words for such small knife!

By the way in Crete and other places of Greece they still use the word “Machaira” for the knife. But the more common word is “machairi”.

RobT · 30th October 2005, 11:52 PM

Yannis,
The information given in your reply went beyond my high expectations for this forum and I thank you very much. Your statement that the authentic antique blades had a T-rib was especially interesting in that the two examples I have seen with that feature have had blades that extended below the hilt thereby forming a barrier to the hand and preventing the hand from sliding up the blade on the thrust. I presume that this is a clue to authenticity that I can use in the future when assessing this type of blade.
Sincerely,
RobT

Yannis · 31st October 2005, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobT

Yannis,
the two examples I have seen with that feature have had blades that extended below the hilt thereby forming a barrier to the hand and preventing the hand from sliding up the blade on the thrust.

RobT
I am not sure what you mean. I wish I could see a picture

RobT · 31st October 2005, 02:27 PM

Yannis,
I mean that the blade is wider than the hilt in much the same manner as seen on a choora, pesh kabz, or a Khyber knife. Thus the forefinger bears against the base of the blade when the hilt is gripped. I hope this makes clear what I meant to say. If it doesn't, I will try to make a sketch and post a pdf of it.
Sincerely,
RobT

Rick · 31st October 2005, 03:26 PM

Hi Rob , as regards combat with this knife ; a slash could be accomplished without much danger of the hand sliding forward .
For a stab , the 'icepick grip' with the thumb resting over the butt of the handle between the two bone scales would IMO prevent the hand from sliding up on the blade .

But then again it's a tourist memento and this example is not a serious weapon .

RobT · 31st October 2005, 04:30 PM

Rick,
Given that mine is a tourist blade (although if someone was coming after me with it, I would be a bit concerned), how were the real ones held? You mention the "ice pick" grip as an option to keep the hand from sliding forward. Certainly that would work but wouldn't that type of grip also make a slashing attack all but impossible? Wouldn't the fighter then be forced to either choose between a slash or thrust grip at the time of engagement or switch between the two grips during the action? Thus would not the fighter be faced with the Hobson's choice of limiting his offensive capabilities at the onset of the fight or, in the midst of combat, losing the grip on his weapon? I tend to think a prudent fighter would be loath to do either. Actually, I doubt that switching grip is at all a viable option because, unless the grip was switched during the actual prosecution of an attack (only likely in martial arts films), the change in grip would telegraph the wielder's intent to his opponent. However, if the real knives had a blade that was wider at the base of the blade than the hilt (in say the manner of a choora, pesh kabz or Khyber knife), the hand would then be prevented by the base of the blade from sliding forward. This was how the two T-rib machairi that I saw were constructed and I wonder if this is the salient feature that can be used to distinguish tourist from real.
Sincerely,
RobT

Rick · 31st October 2005, 05:48 PM

I'm not a practitioner of any M.A. Rob , and not to belabor a point ; but not necessarily would the icepick grip preclude 'any' slashing attack (IMO) providing the knife is held with the edge facing the opponent .

IIRC the kanjar is used with this type of grip .

Also IIRC most Puukos and Mora type knives are guardless as well .

Possibly your question about style of fighting with these weapons can be better answered by Yannis , or in a M.A. forum .

Yannis · 31st October 2005, 06:40 PM

As I said I have seen only shepherds to use this kind of knife. So I have no idea how you can hold it in a combat situation.

These shepherds were very fast and I noticed that they were changing the grip a lot of times to flay the goats. I suppose that there are few techniques to hold it without the risk to cut your fingers. But dead goats dont fight back

The T-spine is the oldest type, but we can call authentic also the normal spines as far they have a hand forged and real blade, like the type Tim show us it the other post.

30th October 2005, 10:11 AM	#2
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	About cretan knifes This is a Cretan knife. This kind of knifes started as form sometime in 18th or early 19th century and they were part of daily dress of men of the island. In some villages women used to wear it too. At least in one village it was tradition to offer a knife like this to a girl in her engagement as symbol of protection. There is a lot symbolism on this knife so it was (and it still is) an important gift between friends. The art of knife making was so good in late 19th century and early 20th that some pieces were really jewels. Rich and important people had knifes with ivory hilts and full silver scabbards. On these scabbards sometimes we see symbols of faith (Christian or Islamic) so we can guess the ethnicity of the owner. A lot of these pieces were given as presents to foreigners. The good old blades have T cross sections and if the have engravings they are only symbols and maybe a date in Christian or Islamic calendar. Words on a blade almost sure indicate 20th century. Names of places like Chania indicate 1950 and on. The special word “Enthimion” (memento – remembrance), like on this blade, indicates that it is made for tourist market. This is an old piece so maybe it is not far from the original ones. Today’s tourist pieces are junk. Till 1980 in Chania there were few famous bladesmiths who were doing fine handforged blades for customers who knew the difference between hand made and industrial pieces. Today there are some bladesmiths who make good knifes for use but they don’t care about decoration and few new bladesmiths who try to revive the tradition of the fine pieces, but it is hard. About the use of the Cretan knife. The real ones are very good to kill and flay an animal. I have seen shepherds up on the mountains to do it amazing fast, approximately 2 minutes for a goat. I suppose it is also good in a fight. In Crete as in Corsica there is a tradition of vendetta, still alive in our days, sporadically. But they use fire weapons. The island is heavy armed with illegal pistols and automatic rifles. Almost every family has at least one, some they have big collections. If you ask them why, they reply “We have fight so many enemies in the past that we cannot allow ourselves to be unarmed if they come again”. On this particular blade we see a poem on. It is the kind of sort poem called “Mantinada” that is only in Crete and it has to be smart. These poems could be serious as death or funny as a joke but they have to be smart, unpredictable. The good poets of this kind of poetry still receive good social status on the island and they are hundreds of them in all genders and classes. Now the translation, maybe with few small mistakes because the writing on this blade has erroneous spelling. “If you are alone go away and if you are ten come here my knife fears nobody” “Memento Chania Crete 1952” Brave words for such small knife! By the way in Crete and other places of Greece they still use the word “Machaira” for the knife. But the more common word is “machairi”.

30th October 2005, 11:52 PM	#3
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 476	Thanks Yannis, The information given in your reply went beyond my high expectations for this forum and I thank you very much. Your statement that the authentic antique blades had a T-rib was especially interesting in that the two examples I have seen with that feature have had blades that extended below the hilt thereby forming a barrier to the hand and preventing the hand from sliding up the blade on the thrust. I presume that this is a clue to authenticity that I can use in the future when assessing this type of blade. Sincerely, RobT

31st October 2005, 02:27 PM	#5
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 476	Clarification...hopefully Yannis, I mean that the blade is wider than the hilt in much the same manner as seen on a choora, pesh kabz, or a Khyber knife. Thus the forefinger bears against the base of the blade when the hilt is gripped. I hope this makes clear what I meant to say. If it doesn't, I will try to make a sketch and post a pdf of it. Sincerely, RobT

31st October 2005, 03:26 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,287	Just a Thought .. Hi Rob , as regards combat with this knife ; a slash could be accomplished without much danger of the hand sliding forward . For a stab , the 'icepick grip' with the thumb resting over the butt of the handle between the two bone scales would IMO prevent the hand from sliding up on the blade . But then again it's a tourist memento and this example is not a serious weapon .

31st October 2005, 04:30 PM	#7
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 476	Switching grip? Rick, Given that mine is a tourist blade (although if someone was coming after me with it, I would be a bit concerned), how were the real ones held? You mention the "ice pick" grip as an option to keep the hand from sliding forward. Certainly that would work but wouldn't that type of grip also make a slashing attack all but impossible? Wouldn't the fighter then be forced to either choose between a slash or thrust grip at the time of engagement or switch between the two grips during the action? Thus would not the fighter be faced with the Hobson's choice of limiting his offensive capabilities at the onset of the fight or, in the midst of combat, losing the grip on his weapon? I tend to think a prudent fighter would be loath to do either. Actually, I doubt that switching grip is at all a viable option because, unless the grip was switched during the actual prosecution of an attack (only likely in martial arts films), the change in grip would telegraph the wielder's intent to his opponent. However, if the real knives had a blade that was wider at the base of the blade than the hilt (in say the manner of a choora, pesh kabz or Khyber knife), the hand would then be prevented by the base of the blade from sliding forward. This was how the two T-rib machairi that I saw were constructed and I wonder if this is the salient feature that can be used to distinguish tourist from real. Sincerely, RobT Last edited by RobT; 31st October 2005 at 04:38 PM. Reason: typo

31st October 2005, 05:48 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,287	I'm not a practitioner of any M.A. Rob , and not to belabor a point ; but not necessarily would the icepick grip preclude 'any' slashing attack (IMO) providing the knife is held with the edge facing the opponent . IIRC the kanjar is used with this type of grip . Also IIRC most Puukos and Mora type knives are guardless as well . Possibly your question about style of fighting with these weapons can be better answered by Yannis , or in a M.A. forum .

31st October 2005, 06:40 PM	#9
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	As I said I have seen only shepherds to use this kind of knife. So I have no idea how you can hold it in a combat situation. These shepherds were very fast and I noticed that they were changing the grip a lot of times to flay the goats. I suppose that there are few techniques to hold it without the risk to cut your fingers. But dead goats dont fight back The T-spine is the oldest type, but we can call authentic also the normal spines as far they have a hand forged and real blade, like the type Tim show us it the other post.