black sea yataghan

ariel · 27th October 2005, 01:21 AM

The blade geographically closest to Laz Bicagi is Surmene knife (town of Surmene close to Trabzon).
There were two interesting offerings on ebay recently.
First, this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1

Please notice swelling of the middle section of the scabbard: just the same idea as Laz Bicagi in the original post

Second, a couple of knives with typical multifullered Surmene blades. The single scabbard is rather neat: just like some Chinese weapons or a pair of Persian swords in Topkapi.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1

Jeff D · 14th August 2006, 06:47 PM

Hi All,

I brought up this old thread because I might have some new data. I recently bought this lovely Black Sea yataghan from a fellow forumite. It has a Gregorian date of 1888 on it as well as a Islamic date. 1888 converts to the Hijri date of 1305 or 1306. As can be seen the 1 and the 0 are typical Arabic numbers but the 3 and the 5/6 appear unusual. Is this a local variation that might help place its origin?

All the Best
Jeff

Zifir · 14th August 2006, 11:09 PM

Hi,

The arabic date seems to me as 1303 which can be correctly converted as 1885-1886.

However, from 1840 onwards the Ottomans started to use a second calendar which was called the Rumi calendar. The basic aim was to use a calendar which was compatible with the European calendar. Anyway, if your date is a Rumi date, then its Gregorian equivalent is 1887-1888.

best,

Jeff D · 15th August 2006, 12:34 AM

Thank you Zfir !!!

I know the Ottomans switched to a Julian (Solar) Moslem calender in the early part of the 19th century (to try to correlate with the Julian Gregorian European calendar) but I had no idea what it was called or if it was close to the Hijri (lunar) calandar.

The number 3 is unusal here, is this script used in any particular portion of the Ottoman empire?

Thank you again
Jeff

Zifir · 15th August 2006, 02:43 PM

The unusual style of the number '3' in the date may have something to do with workmanship. Because, the same is true for the Gregorian date 1888 on the sword. Very weird 8's indeed

I think the same think is valid for the numbers in the Hijri date.

Jeff D · 15th August 2006, 05:06 PM

Thank you again Zifir,

I am a little confused. Is the Arabic number three used here common? I am used to seeing it written as below.

You are right about the 8's I actually found the Islamic date first and it took a while to figure out that the 8's made a Gregorian date

Duh

All the best
Jeff

Zifir · 16th August 2006, 12:56 AM

In hand writing, the numbers 2 and 3 have slightly different forms. I attached two examples, the first one is 9240 and the second one is 33,600. You can see how the numbers 2 and 3 in handwriting are different than their printed forms. I hope this helps.

Best,

14th August 2006, 06:47 PM	#2
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi All, I brought up this old thread because I might have some new data. I recently bought this lovely Black Sea yataghan from a fellow forumite. It has a Gregorian date of 1888 on it as well as a Islamic date. 1888 converts to the Hijri date of 1305 or 1306. As can be seen the 1 and the 0 are typical Arabic numbers but the 3 and the 5/6 appear unusual. Is this a local variation that might help place its origin? All the Best Jeff Attached Images

15th August 2006, 05:06 PM	#6
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Thank you again Zifir, I am a little confused. Is the Arabic number three used here common? I am used to seeing it written as below. You are right about the 8's I actually found the Islamic date first and it took a while to figure out that the 8's made a Gregorian date Duh All the best Jeff Attached Images

16th August 2006, 12:56 AM	#7
Zifir Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Istanbul Posts: 228	In hand writing, the numbers 2 and 3 have slightly different forms. I attached two examples, the first one is 9240 and the second one is 33,600. You can see how the numbers 2 and 3 in handwriting are different than their printed forms. I hope this helps. Best, Attached Images

27th October 2005, 01:21 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The blade geographically closest to Laz Bicagi is Surmene knife (town of Surmene close to Trabzon). There were two interesting offerings on ebay recently. First, this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1 Please notice swelling of the middle section of the scabbard: just the same idea as Laz Bicagi in the original post Second, a couple of knives with typical multifullered Surmene blades. The single scabbard is rather neat: just like some Chinese weapons or a pair of Persian swords in Topkapi. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1

14th August 2006, 11:09 PM	#3
Zifir Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Istanbul Posts: 228	Hi, The arabic date seems to me as 1303 which can be correctly converted as 1885-1886. However, from 1840 onwards the Ottomans started to use a second calendar which was called the Rumi calendar. The basic aim was to use a calendar which was compatible with the European calendar. Anyway, if your date is a Rumi date, then its Gregorian equivalent is 1887-1888. best,

15th August 2006, 12:34 AM	#4
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Thank you Zfir !!! I know the Ottomans switched to a Julian (Solar) Moslem calender in the early part of the 19th century (to try to correlate with the Julian Gregorian European calendar) but I had no idea what it was called or if it was close to the Hijri (lunar) calandar. The number 3 is unusal here, is this script used in any particular portion of the Ottoman empire? Thank you again Jeff

15th August 2006, 02:43 PM	#5
Zifir Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Istanbul Posts: 228	The unusual style of the number '3' in the date may have something to do with workmanship. Because, the same is true for the Gregorian date 1888 on the sword. Very weird 8's indeed I think the same think is valid for the numbers in the Hijri date.