Antique blade... roman, celtic, iliria?

[Miyamoto]

Hello!

And there goes another gem of my collection. This is an antique blade. I would say somwhere in between 500 b.c and 300 a.c. I'm unable to tell if it is a roman (maybe ceremonia, it is not a pugiol), ilirian (i do not think so, 'cos they had not known what iron is, since they moved to Albania and start building thoose bunkers ) or Norik-celtic. The two ornaments seems to be bronze with some mixture of gold, maybe 4 to 5 karats. However, I never saw anything of that style before. The total lenght is 28 cm (11 inches). I assume that it was a dagger of somekind, but i'm not excluding it to be a short sword 'cos a large portion of the point could be missing.

I've bought it several years ago from a local here in Slovenia (Central Europe) It was found in near Ajdovscina (roman name Castrum at Frigidum) wich was a verry important roman outpost during the whole imperial era. It lies in the center of theVipava valley wich was the border (Postumia, famous for the caves) between the West and East Roman Empire for about a century. Here the biggest battle between the two empires took place. Before it was a important trade post of the Norik state, later Roman Norik province. (and even before Norik ther was some Ilirians here and there.)

What do you think?
Any thoughts?

[Rivkin]

I am not a specialist in ancient weapons, but in my opinion it can be nearly from everywhere, actual type seems to me a little bit Central Asian, for example: Gorelik XII-73 (Central Asia 1000b.c.-0 a.d.), VIII-35 (Altai 1000b.c.-0 a.d.).

If you want I can post the scans of above cited pages, however one should bear in mind that Gorelik does not adress post 0 a.d. and specifically roman weapons and daggers (and I don't have any books on roman daggers), and since all the cultures used somewhat similar knifes and daggers, it is quite possible that by 300 a.d. this type migrated into Europe.

[Miyamoto]

Thank you Rivkin! I'll be gratefull if you post some pictures.

As a matter of fact, it might be slavic origin, from some Slavic migration, wich took place in the 6th and 7th centur. They migrated from The Caucasian area.

It would be great discovering that! The early slavic blades are verry rare (more than cltic/roman).

[ariel]

Not my area at all, but ... It looks too good and intact for a 7th century iron sword. I would expect more rust, less even edges and no what I think are clearly visible and demarkated areas looking like grindstone marks.
Overall, this looks like a oversize beer bottle opener

[TVV]

Originally Posted by ariel

Not my area at all, but ... It looks too good and intact for a 7th century iron sword. I would expect more rust, less even edges and no what I think are clearly visible and demarkated areas looking like grindstone marks.
Overall, this looks like a oversize beer bottle opener

I completely agree: the pitting is comparable to that of a poorlly maintained late 19th century bayonet or sword, for example. And the brass on ancient pieces tends to be well patinated and green in appearance, while the alloy on this one exhibits no patination whatsoever. Unfortunately recently while browsing eBay I cannot help but notice the enormous amount of "ancient" weapons: mahairas, "Byzantine", "Celtic" and "Roman" daggers and swords, all coming from a few sellers who appear to have endless supplies of them and all with the vague "found in the Balkans" description. Determining the authenticity of ancient artefacts is a very hard task, and even museum curators get fooled often. Miyamoto, did you obtain this piece from a treaure hunter/archeologist near the spot of its supposed origin, or did you acquire it second- ot third-hand through the internet? While the answer to this question will not prove anything, it may point you to the right direction.

[Miyamoto]

Hi and thanks for your opinions!

However, I'm avsolutely certain, that the dagger is at least 1000 years old. It looks antique manufacture and it evens smells like one. Also the color of the material used ( i think of a misture of bronze and iron not visibile on my poor photos) is verry antique looking. As I said I've bought it from a local "treasre hunter" (I live only 30 km away from Castorum at Frigidum) and beeing an aquitance of mine, I'll exclude that he lied to me. He even showed me the place where he exavated it.

Your points are verry clear and understandable.I can understand your thoughts, I also thought that my friend was trying to fool me around a little.
However you have to know that beeing verry unexperienced in the field, he had cleaned the dagger up extensively, immediately after he had found it. That would explain thoose file marks and no substantial pitting on the surface. Lower pitting is also atributed to the fact that in antique times the place where the dagger was found was wasteland. So if it were initially in burried the mood, not a lot of oxygen would be near the blade for a tousand of years. In the middle ages there were a mass population growth and they had dried up those terrain. In fact the dagger was found 1.5 meters deep underground in a strate of solid and compressed black terrain. I had a to say a big when I've took a look at that hole!

Another thing. If you take a look at the third (side view) photo, you'd see a a small piece wich was not touched, look right in between the two gold pieces attached. It is hardly to see it cos the photo is a little blurry but I can assure you that it is a 1.5mm strait of green patina.

I've aquired quite a lot of stuff, toghether with that dagger, all roman stuff (evena a wolf - Lupa Romana), but it was found more than 300 meter away from the site of that dagger, so I cannot atribuite for certain to the romans. There was a lot more more of that fibulas.

Ariel: It would be fine to see a found someday an skeleton of an ancient Slavic Staresina, haveing his bottle of beer quietly

[Miyamoto]

Originally Posted by TVV

Unfortunately recently while browsing eBay I cannot help but notice the enormous amount of "ancient" weapons: mahairas, "Byzantine", "Celtic" and "Roman" daggers and swords, all coming from a few sellers who appear to have endless supplies of them and all with the vague "found in the Balkans" description. Determining the authenticity of ancient artefacts is a very hard task, and even museum curators get fooled often.

I completely agree. I've spotted them either. But you from my point of view a lot of them are originals. Why? Thoose greek mahairas are found in the Macedonia in verry large quantities,. They are all verry bad condition, however. Macedonia is full of greek graves and there are areas wich are not researched yet. I know that 'cos a friend lives there. Why anbody had put a gladius for sale? If thoose are reprdoctions, why they are not reproducing roman 5000$ worth Gladiuses instead of mahairas for 30$?

[TVV]

Well, if have bought it first hand from the treasure-hunetrs, then there is no reason for concern. However, I still doubt the huge number of mahairas on eBay. There are thousands of Thracian burial sites in Bulgaria alone, and in Bulgarian museums the mahairas are not too many. Actually, they are probably less than the ones currently on eBay. And while one can doubt the mahairas (which when you think about it are extremely easy to fake), I certainly do not doubt the so-called Byzantine daggers, which are all late 19th, early 20th century village knives.
As far as Slavic weapons, this is a great topic. In Bulgaria, only one or two swords have been found and catalogued, and even those two are not certain to be Slavic, since they can also be Bulgarian, Byzantine, Avar or even Varyag. In a Czech book about early medieval Slavic artefacts I was once able to look at, there were a few swords, which were very similar in structure and hilt decoration to early Viking swords, which is not surprising as swordsmith centers in Western Europe were situated along the Rhein. Your piece does not seem at all like them, while with its ring hilt it has a very far resemblance to some central Asian pieces: maybe it was brought to the Western Balkans by the Huns. But this is an area I have very little knowledge in and so would stop speculating.
Regards,
Teodor

[Miyamoto]

Originally Posted by TVV

And while one can doubt the mahairas (which when you think about it are extremely easy to fake), I certainly do not doubt the so-called Byzantine daggers, which are all late 19th, early 20th century village knives.

Yes, I've spotted them to Some of them even retains the original macedonian dried mood on them

[Miyamoto]

Rivkin,

Still waiting for your photos

I the meanwhile here is a foto from a book stating that the dagger is Celtic... I find it verry similar to the one in my possesion. Less decorated, but still.

[TVV]

Miyamoto,
While I personally fail to see any similarity between the item in your possession and the Celtic swords from the book photo you have posted, I believe I have discovered a picture you and the other forumites may deem interesting. This photo has been taken in the Sofia shop of a Bulgarian antiques salesman, at least a few years ago (he does not keep a shop anymore). For his protection I have blackened his face. Now, take a close look at the item right next to his head that I have encircled in red. Other than the price tag on the hilt, to my eye at least it appears very similar to, if not identical to the item that started this thread.
I know that this does not tell anything more about the origin of this item from what we already know, but here are just a few thoughts, which you can feel free to disagree with. You say you have purchased yours several years ago, which coincides with the approximate time the photo I have attached to this message was taken (I know that for certain). It appears there were two identical mysterious ancient artefacts at about the same time both in Bulgaria and Slovenia. I myself have two possible explanations for that phenomenon: either one and the same dagger made its way from Sofia to Slovenia, or approximately several years ago somebody opened a small shop and produced God only knows how many of these ancient daggers. From my experience with forgers in my own country, I think the latter is more likely.
I hope to be proven conclusively wrong, as then these daggers will contribute to the archaeology of weapons on the whole Balkan peninsula, but in light of the evidence so far and my own experience and observations, I am afraid we have another case of mass-produced "ancient" weapons we have to watch out for.
Regards,
Teodor

[Miyamoto]

Great Find TVV!!!!!

Thank you verry much!

The daggers looks verry similar indeed. It seems quite bigger than mine from what I can tell from the photo.

No, as I said before I'm excluding it to be a forgery. My friend found it in the ground and gave it to me for free. I'm 100% certain about that. To the antique origin of this blade I can add the fact that thoose ornaments are gold (tested).

It is quite impressive however that two almost identical weapons existed on such a vast space. If I weren't absolutely certain that the dagger in my possesion is orginal I would also claim that it is a repro... However, the evidence is breathtaking. The possibility of such extensive use in the past is almost fantasientific, and beyond that, practically the same condition of the two daggers.
I really do not know whta to say. That's a mysteriy.


Do you know that guy, TVV? Is there any remote possibilty to gather further info about that dagger?

[TVV]

I will ask him about that dagger, and hopefully, he will remember it. He is quite knowledgeable about antique weapons, especially 19th century ones, which he specializes in as you can see from the photo, but I do not know how extensive his knowledge on ancient weapons is. I will see if he knows anything more.
Regards,
Teodor

[Tim Simmons]

Hi, I have read this thread with great interest. The edges of these blades are in an unbelievably good condition for weapons from a BC-AD date when compered to weapons found in celtic grave sites in the Uk. Even centuries later Viking and swords of the middle ages that have been kept in churches do not have as good edges. Also if they were real anything like that here in the Uk would make front page of the national newspaper and I suspect that is the case in most countries world wide. Also if they were real your friend is unbelievably generous as they would be worth a small retirement pension. Tim

[TVV]

I asked the Bulgarian antiques salesman about the object, and his explanation about it was so striking and yet so obvious that I am still wondering how none of us thought of it. According to him, this is an old German sharpener steel, quite well made, from the turn of the 19th century. He said that he has seen a few instances, in which other sellers tried to pass it off as a knife (not a Celtic one though, just Medieval). This explanation fits perfectly with the shape of the blade and the hilt. As for the gold: it is possible for a deluxe sharpener steel to have been gold gilded. Not all objects, found in the ground with a metal detector are necessarily thousands of years old. Chances are, this sharpener steel got lost and when your friend picked up its signal with his metal detector and dug it out, it looked really interesting and he simply had no way of knowing what it really was. Check eBay item number 6508316709 for a somewhat similar object.
I am sorry this object is not indeed an ancient dagger or short sword, but at least the good news is that it is not a forgery. It has its own value, which may not be as much as a small retirement pension, but still.
Regards,
Teodor

[Miyamoto]

Ok guys!

Thank you verry much for your help!

The facts are evident. I feel a little sad about thatone and also a little dummy The case is definetly closed

Thanks again!

[Rivkin]

I am probably late, but if it makes you feel better - attached is a typical sarmatian dagger.