A miquelet escopeta for comments

aptheo · 12th July 2013, 11:21 PM

I'm pretty sure this is a Spanish trabuco, a type of blunderbuss, which is a shotgun. I have a source that says the Spanish military did in fact use them, and they were also used by Spanish explorers of the Americas. Trabuco Canyon, an area in Southern California, is actually named after this type of gun.

Fernando K · 13th July 2013, 12:48 AM

Hello:

I differ with Aptheo. The blunderbuss has a bell mouth, usually, generally, is of greater caliber than a shotgun. The fact that it has the same system ignción (miquelet, pin, Catalan or Spanish) and that his head is "Catalan" as the copy attached to the post, not meant to be a blunderbuss.

Affectionately. Fernando K

aptheo · 13th July 2013, 07:52 AM

Hi Fernando K,

I know that most blunderbusses can be instantly recognized by their trademark flared muzzles, but from what I've read (and seen), the 18th century Spanish take on the weapon either did not have a belled muzzle at all, or it was tapered only very slightly. From the same source in my comment above:

"...whereas the ordinary blunderbuss had a definite flare toward the muzzle, resulting in a rather large mouth, the true trabuco had a more graceful tapering barrel ending in a much smaller-belled muzzle."

fernando · 13th July 2013, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aptheo

... "...whereas the ordinary blunderbuss had a definite flare toward the muzzle, resulting in a rather large mouth, the true trabuco had a more graceful tapering barrel ending in a much smaller-belled muzzle."

Not necessarily so, i am afraid

Look at these Catalunian trabuqueros ready for party

... They must have some knowledge of these things

.

-

CutlassCollector · 13th July 2013, 12:19 PM

Hi Machinist, great piece, congratulations.
I was wondering about the belt hook and whether it was fitted later, or is it common with these firearms - presumably for a long gun a belt hook was for fitting to a saddle rather than the person? Does it indicate a cavalry carbine or just a convenient fitting for hunting or travelling?
Regards, CC.

machinist · 13th July 2013, 09:42 PM

Hello Aptheo, I am pretty sure it is just an escopeta but language is a fluid thing. It was interesting to hear about Trabuco canyon, there are a lot of these names that most folks just do not notice or know the origin of.

Hello CutlassCollector, The engraving seems to flow around the hook so I imagine it was original equipment. I have no real knowledge about how it was carried but it seems clumsy to have it on the belt on horse back so I imagine it would be hung from the saddle and perhaps hung from a belt or sash if you needed both hands for something but wanted the gun close by.

A few weeks after I got this I was setting a gopher trap in my vegetable garden and found a flint for it. Most European flints are uni-facially percussion flaked but this one is bi-facially pressure flaked much like an arrowhead so I believe that this is either a broken native American knife blade that just happens to match the size and shape of a flintlock flint or a native made flint for a Spanish weapon. I tried it and it sparks but not impressively.

fernando · 13th July 2013, 09:54 PM

Trabucos at the Madrid Navy Museum

.

Miqueleter · 14th July 2013, 01:35 AM

Fernando, great shot of blunderbusses. Third one down looks to be the same as several at the old Royal Armouries at the Tower of London. I have a 35mm shot of them, somewhere amongst my albums.

For what it's worth, Herschel Logan was a very skilled illustrator who sometimes dabbled in guns. I can remember back in the '60s seeing his exploded view drawings in the American Rifleman, I believe.

aptheo · 14th July 2013, 09:47 PM

Awesome pictures everybody! I'm glad to learn that trabucos actually can have that flared muzzle, it helps with some other research I'm doing. Details about that story are in another post I made here though. Thanks! I'm learning a lot here since I joined.

fernando · 15th July 2013, 02:59 PM

We all know that the term trabuco comes from the Provençal "trabuc" and was originaly attributed to stone throwing siege war machines.
I have for me that the later use of the term in Spain for firearms was applied to the same typology as the blunderbuss in english, the specific design of each variant being independent from the generic name.
Athough the term trabuco is familiar to the portuguese, we more often use "bacamarte", which also has its etymologic roots.
The flare of the muzzle depending either in artistic freedom, mechanical possibilities or arsenal design, often connotated with better projectile spread and or more impressive look towards the (human) target, serves basicaly the purpose of facilitating the loading, be it single ball or lots of varied junk.
While arsenal barrels may have a more elaborated design ... bell, trumpet, duck beak ... home made examples, those often made of salvaged musket barrels shortened for the purpose, are restrained to the simple swelling of the muzzle ending. I was once told that the (one) system used, is heating the barrel muzzle and expand it by hammering in a spinning top.

.

12th July 2013, 11:21 PM	#1
aptheo Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Southern California Posts: 8	I'm pretty sure this is a Spanish trabuco, a type of blunderbuss, which is a shotgun. I have a source that says the Spanish military did in fact use them, and they were also used by Spanish explorers of the Americas. Trabuco Canyon, an area in Southern California, is actually named after this type of gun. Attached Images

13th July 2013, 09:42 PM	#6
machinist Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 93	Hello Aptheo, I am pretty sure it is just an escopeta but language is a fluid thing. It was interesting to hear about Trabuco canyon, there are a lot of these names that most folks just do not notice or know the origin of. Hello CutlassCollector, The engraving seems to flow around the hook so I imagine it was original equipment. I have no real knowledge about how it was carried but it seems clumsy to have it on the belt on horse back so I imagine it would be hung from the saddle and perhaps hung from a belt or sash if you needed both hands for something but wanted the gun close by. A few weeks after I got this I was setting a gopher trap in my vegetable garden and found a flint for it. Most European flints are uni-facially percussion flaked but this one is bi-facially pressure flaked much like an arrowhead so I believe that this is either a broken native American knife blade that just happens to match the size and shape of a flintlock flint or a native made flint for a Spanish weapon. I tried it and it sparks but not impressively. Attached Images Last edited by machinist; 13th July 2013 at 09:53 PM.

13th July 2013, 09:54 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Trabucos at the Madrid Navy Museum . Attached Images

15th July 2013, 02:59 PM	#10
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	We all know that the term trabuco comes from the Provençal "trabuc" and was originaly attributed to stone throwing siege war machines. I have for me that the later use of the term in Spain for firearms was applied to the same typology as the blunderbuss in english, the specific design of each variant being independent from the generic name. Athough the term trabuco is familiar to the portuguese, we more often use "bacamarte", which also has its etymologic roots. The flare of the muzzle depending either in artistic freedom, mechanical possibilities or arsenal design, often connotated with better projectile spread and or more impressive look towards the (human) target, serves basicaly the purpose of facilitating the loading, be it single ball or lots of varied junk. While arsenal barrels may have a more elaborated design ... bell, trumpet, duck beak ... home made examples, those often made of salvaged musket barrels shortened for the purpose, are restrained to the simple swelling of the muzzle ending. I was once told that the (one) system used, is heating the barrel muzzle and expand it by hammering in a spinning top. . Attached Images

13th July 2013, 12:48 AM	#2
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 669	Hello: I differ with Aptheo. The blunderbuss has a bell mouth, usually, generally, is of greater caliber than a shotgun. The fact that it has the same system ignción (miquelet, pin, Catalan or Spanish) and that his head is "Catalan" as the copy attached to the post, not meant to be a blunderbuss. Affectionately. Fernando K

13th July 2013, 07:52 AM	#3
aptheo Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Southern California Posts: 8	Hi Fernando K, I know that most blunderbusses can be instantly recognized by their trademark flared muzzles, but from what I've read (and seen), the 18th century Spanish take on the weapon either did not have a belled muzzle at all, or it was tapered only very slightly. From the same source in my comment above: "...whereas the ordinary blunderbuss had a definite flare toward the muzzle, resulting in a rather large mouth, the true trabuco had a more graceful tapering barrel ending in a much smaller-belled muzzle."

13th July 2013, 12:19 PM	#5
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 330	Hi Machinist, great piece, congratulations. I was wondering about the belt hook and whether it was fitted later, or is it common with these firearms - presumably for a long gun a belt hook was for fitting to a saddle rather than the person? Does it indicate a cavalry carbine or just a convenient fitting for hunting or travelling? Regards, CC.

14th July 2013, 01:35 AM	#8
Miqueleter Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Southern California Posts: 39	Fernando, great shot of blunderbusses. Third one down looks to be the same as several at the old Royal Armouries at the Tower of London. I have a 35mm shot of them, somewhere amongst my albums. For what it's worth, Herschel Logan was a very skilled illustrator who sometimes dabbled in guns. I can remember back in the '60s seeing his exploded view drawings in the American Rifleman, I believe.

14th July 2013, 09:47 PM	#9
aptheo Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Southern California Posts: 8	Awesome pictures everybody! I'm glad to learn that trabucos actually can have that flared muzzle, it helps with some other research I'm doing. Details about that story are in another post I made here though. Thanks! I'm learning a lot here since I joined.