On the Origins of the so-called Berber Sabres

TVV · 10th June 2013, 05:34 PM

In an effort to bring yet another angle to the origin discussion of these swords, I am posting a comparison between the file work on the back of the tang on one of my "Berber" swords, and the hilt of an Albacete dagger, taken by Marcus back in 2006 while the Barcelona Military Museum still existed. The motif is similar.

Regards,
Teodor

Jim McDougall · 10th June 2013, 08:09 PM

Thank you for posting that Teodor! another intriguing element that compels the Spanish colonial aspects of these swords, though suggesting thier origins may indeed have been in Spains colonies in the Maghreb before diffusion abroad.
While in discussions of earlier years I had also considered the absence of these sabres in Charles Buttin's works. I am wondering if perhaps because they seem to have been situated in regions farther west from the French areas he was of course in, maybe he did not encounter these and they were not enough in presence by then to have been largely noticeable. I would presume that by the time of his residency in Morocco these would have already become diffused to the west.
The fact that these sabres seem to be almost invariably identified in groupings in Latin America and other Spanish ports of call does not necessarily mean that thier origins could not have indeed been in Moroccan regions, the Tirri references being the instance supporting this.

TVV · 10th June 2013, 08:42 PM

Jim,

How reliable is Tirri as a reference? I am sure he is correct about many attributions, but then, according to his book, we should still be looking for the laz bicagi in Egypt. We have to be careful not to propagate false information.

Regards,
Teodor

Jim McDougall · 10th June 2013, 09:04 PM

Teodor you know you and I are very much on the same page regarding the Tirri 'references', and who can forget the BSY drama!

However as with most of these kinds of books, subsequent research and findings can often either further refute or sometimes support entries . In the case of these sabres I personally have not held to Tirri's classification, but as with many cases there is a wide scope of qualification and things can often be in gray areas.
Overall the larger balance of his attributions are reliable, and very much so considering those who consulted in preparation of the book, however it seems the major problem is the lack of cited references and sources.

I definitely agree, that we as students of arms history should not propogate false information, but continue research to properly balance information at hand. If these are indeed with the origins in Morocco then we need to properly acknowledge that with new findings, but frankly at this point the jury is still out.
Conversely, with the Laz Bicagi case, a classic example of revision, reminding us to recheck data used from many of the references we consult. I once read "...the thing I like most about history, is how its always changing!".

All the best,
JIm

ariel · 11th June 2013, 01:25 AM

Can't find my copy of Spring's book on african weapons.
But the scabbard of the "berber" one has the same protrusion at the end as the ethiopian ones. Yes, Berbers are not Ethiopians, but heck of a lot closer to them geographically than the Brazilians:-)

Jim McDougall · 11th June 2013, 06:36 AM

That was something that I noticed as well when I first got one of these 'Berber' sabres back in the early 1990s, and could not figure out why those examples shown in Spring as Ethiopian had the same type protrusions. I think that discussions some years ago also suggested that the 'thum' type extension on khanjhar scabbards and from Algerian regions some of the koummya scabbards was considered possible in influence.

Again, aside from Spring, other references on Ethiopian edged weapons do not include these type sabres, and as far as I know most of the varying shotel scabbards (excluding Spring) do not have these protrusions.

ariel · 11th June 2013, 11:47 AM

The pic I showed is not from Spring. BTW, I found my copy of Spring:-) and can photo the examples from it for general reference.
These protrusions may be infrequent on the Ethiopian scabbards, but they do exist. I know of no other examples of weapons that share such a feature. We cannot ignore it as a potential evidence of the "berber" sabres belonging to Africa rather than S. America

10th June 2013, 05:34 PM	#1
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,604	In an effort to bring yet another angle to the origin discussion of these swords, I am posting a comparison between the file work on the back of the tang on one of my "Berber" swords, and the hilt of an Albacete dagger, taken by Marcus back in 2006 while the Barcelona Military Museum still existed. The motif is similar. Regards, Teodor Attached Images

11th June 2013, 01:25 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Can't find my copy of Spring's book on african weapons. But the scabbard of the "berber" one has the same protrusion at the end as the ethiopian ones. Yes, Berbers are not Ethiopians, but heck of a lot closer to them geographically than the Brazilians:-) Attached Images Last edited by ariel; 11th June 2013 at 03:22 AM.

10th June 2013, 08:09 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,814	Thank you for posting that Teodor! another intriguing element that compels the Spanish colonial aspects of these swords, though suggesting thier origins may indeed have been in Spains colonies in the Maghreb before diffusion abroad. While in discussions of earlier years I had also considered the absence of these sabres in Charles Buttin's works. I am wondering if perhaps because they seem to have been situated in regions farther west from the French areas he was of course in, maybe he did not encounter these and they were not enough in presence by then to have been largely noticeable. I would presume that by the time of his residency in Morocco these would have already become diffused to the west. The fact that these sabres seem to be almost invariably identified in groupings in Latin America and other Spanish ports of call does not necessarily mean that thier origins could not have indeed been in Moroccan regions, the Tirri references being the instance supporting this.

10th June 2013, 08:42 PM	#3
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,604	Jim, How reliable is Tirri as a reference? I am sure he is correct about many attributions, but then, according to his book, we should still be looking for the laz bicagi in Egypt. We have to be careful not to propagate false information. Regards, Teodor

10th June 2013, 09:04 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,814	Teodor you know you and I are very much on the same page regarding the Tirri 'references', and who can forget the BSY drama! However as with most of these kinds of books, subsequent research and findings can often either further refute or sometimes support entries . In the case of these sabres I personally have not held to Tirri's classification, but as with many cases there is a wide scope of qualification and things can often be in gray areas. Overall the larger balance of his attributions are reliable, and very much so considering those who consulted in preparation of the book, however it seems the major problem is the lack of cited references and sources. I definitely agree, that we as students of arms history should not propogate false information, but continue research to properly balance information at hand. If these are indeed with the origins in Morocco then we need to properly acknowledge that with new findings, but frankly at this point the jury is still out. Conversely, with the Laz Bicagi case, a classic example of revision, reminding us to recheck data used from many of the references we consult. I once read "...the thing I like most about history, is how its always changing!". All the best, JIm

11th June 2013, 06:36 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,814	That was something that I noticed as well when I first got one of these 'Berber' sabres back in the early 1990s, and could not figure out why those examples shown in Spring as Ethiopian had the same type protrusions. I think that discussions some years ago also suggested that the 'thum' type extension on khanjhar scabbards and from Algerian regions some of the koummya scabbards was considered possible in influence. Again, aside from Spring, other references on Ethiopian edged weapons do not include these type sabres, and as far as I know most of the varying shotel scabbards (excluding Spring) do not have these protrusions.

11th June 2013, 11:47 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The pic I showed is not from Spring. BTW, I found my copy of Spring:-) and can photo the examples from it for general reference. These protrusions may be infrequent on the Ethiopian scabbards, but they do exist. I know of no other examples of weapons that share such a feature. We cannot ignore it as a potential evidence of the "berber" sabres belonging to Africa rather than S. America