black sea yataghan

Aqtai · 13th October 2005, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Bowditch

Tony supports his N. African provenance theory with a number of features from a number of pieces, so its not really unsupported in terms or argument (he gave a very interesting talk on it at the EEWRS dinner a couple years back). His position is, as Ariel points out, the subject of debate, and certainly based on empirical observation and deduction rather than historical or local information.

There are some ways to reconcile the two, for example taking into account that Ottoman troops may have brought it with them to places like Egypt during the Ottoman Empire period, or influence going the other way via trade or population movement. I think one unanswered question is how far back the style goes, which is always an interesting question to me, as it can open up possiblities of cross-cultural influence, or exclude others that would have post-dated the earliest appearance of the style (for example in this case, if it predates Ottoman presence in N. Africa).

This makes sense to me. Many of the best Ottoman troops in the 18th and early 19th century were "irregular" units who used their own traditional weapons and clothing. I wouldn't be surbrised if Laz units were stationed in Egypt or North Africa. After all Muhammad Ali Pasha who was Ottoman Governer of Egypt in the early 19th century and went on to become virtual dictator of Egypt, started his career as an officer in an Albanian "irregular" Unit, and he relied heavily on his fellow "Arna'ut" during his rise to power. On a another completetly unrelated (and slightly daft) side issue, that sword does bear a striking resemblence to the Ancient Egyptian khopesh...

Mark · 14th October 2005, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aqtai

On a another completetly unrelated (and slightly daft) side issue, that sword does bear a striking resemblence to the Ancient Egyptian khopesh...

Actually, I think that very point was raised in an early discussion of black sea yataghans on the old UBB forum. I don't think anyone ran with it, but I do see the similarity (except for the pommel).

ariel · 14th October 2005, 01:05 AM

Ham,
The only thing I can advise you is to get a full-size Laz Bicagi and try to wield it in any way you wish (sa long as it is far from your nose...). After that do the same with kinjal and shashka.
Then you will understand.
BTW, was gauntlet sword (see above) reminescent of Pata?

Ahriman · 14th October 2005, 06:23 PM

I have an idea, Ariel. Send me pictures, good, close pictures of a simple black sea yataghan with quite exact sizes. As both my ex and current girlfriend, and my best friend, and me myself like the shape, I'll have to make one soon.
So I'll make the sword by the sent parameters soon after receiving them. And sharpen it fully, of course. And do a little test-cutting, both with hacking cuts and with draw cuts on a nice big piece of meat. If I can cut down to the upper area of the bone with the draw-cut, and if I can repeat it three times, we won. If not, then choose any simple, undecorated piece of armour, I'll make it for free. But if we won, I'll hand over the sword to my ex-girlfriend... and if even she can cut down to the bone (not into it, she's rather weak nowadays), we'll get the original sword. Deal?

BTW, test-cutting on meat is a very good thing. It won't dull your blades much, and you'll have an idea of their cutting power. I could almost behead a hog with one strike with my old dopplehander. A dead hog, of course. Mostly dieing from sickness, so it was free prey to our blades.

("Almost" means that I mostly use zornhauen with huge swords... so the lying hog's skull's lower area stopped the cut after travelling several inches in it after getting in from almost the back. The spine was cleaved through anyway.)

BTW, I think it bears more similarity with the greek version. Lighter blade, though. And it's similar to a few acinaces' as well.

Rivkin · 14th October 2005, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ahriman

ISo I'll make the sword by the sent parameters soon after receiving them. And sharpen it fully, of course. And do a little test-cutting, both with hacking cuts and with draw cuts on a nice big piece of meat. If I can cut down to the upper area of the bone with the draw-cut, and if I can repeat it three times, we won...BTW, test-cutting on meat is a very good thing. It won't dull your blades much, and you'll have an idea of their cutting power. I could almost behead a hog with one strike with my old dopplehander. A dead hog, of course.

A good and thin metal string or lancet will cut meat far better than any hand and a half sword... Does not mean they are good weapons.

ariel · 15th October 2005, 03:03 AM

Ahriman,
Dead hogs do not strike back (ex-girlfriends and, especially, ex-wives, do).
I'll make you another deal: make yourself a copy of Laz Bicagi including the horned pommel; I'll get a shashka and we fence. Whoever wins, takes the opponent to the ER.
Trust me, the range of movements for Laz Bicagi is so limited and awkward, I'll be the driver at the end....
I tried just now to strike a tree branch (very thin, of course) with it . The curvature is so crazy that I couldn't judge the distance and the horned pommel got tangled in my sleeve. It is just not a very good weapon, although it is very show-y and exotic.
If we think about it, there are very few basic forms of fighting blades all over the world. Just from experience people of different cultures ended up with similar ideas: curved for slashing, straight for stabbing ,recurved for extra slashing force and some stabbing etc. Laz Bichagi stands unique and for a good reason.

Miyamoto · 18th October 2005, 12:22 PM

WOOW!

I went out fishing a couple of days and look here what an interesting debate we have!

Thank you guys for sharing information!

Geographikal origin: I think, after reading all that opinions and after seeing all that evidences that it has to be Ottoman Black Sea region, intended for ship boarding.

Power: I'm a kendo and iaido student and I own a black sea yathagan, so I can tell you from the first hand. It is really terrbile to handle, just believe Ariel and me. Not balanced, difficult to draw from scabbard, difficult to yudge the distance, ecc. Give me a katana (or even a Wakizashi) and I'll be able to kill almost instantly the bastard who'd be so stupidly brave to challenge me. Metaforically speaking, I intend.

ORIGINS: It is really unapropried for combat either from horse or ground. I think that it originated from classic yatagan, wich from my point of view is verry unapropriate for close combat in small crowded areas like a ship would be with all that balustrades, railings, cords, masts ecc. They just added a curvature to enhance the rebounding, recoiling action of the weapon against various obsatcles. Just think of a combat in a small corridor... With an ordinary yathagan will stick to the wall and the warrior instantly killed. For fighting in areas full of obstacles a weapon has to have different point compatred to a classic yataghan, so the warrior could make stabbing actions also. Just think for a moment that you are in a middle of combat on sea and tha you have to cut a rope avoidng to hit the mast? With all other longlike weapons would be nearly impossible. All the facts supports the piracy proposal of that weapon. Another fact supporting that teory is that it is a verry rare weapon. Limited usage - limited production. Kinjals I think were to heavy and also the combat style, wich take a lot of space were inapropriate for ship boarding. The shashka being a cavalry rather long sword was also unapropriate.

Another thing: Some of them really could be north african origin. Look, being used by sailors, and beeing so apropriate for naval boardings it makes a perfect weapon for such purpose, wich was maybe copied in shape by local smiths in the ports around the whole meditteranean area. The knopesh (a verry different usage, more like a sickle) and especially the flissa (what it has rally in common???) have really nothing to do with it.

About pommel: The two horned pommel has obviously a purpose. I think that it derives from classic yataghan pommel. Thoose tho horns, from my point of view, is also an extreme close cobat solution for attacking the eyes of an enemy wich has came too close for slashing or stabbing him.

So we have here, what i think, a perfect boarding weapon in all of its aspects. (wich is obviously extremly unapropriate for all other kinds of usage)

Regarding my previous topic: I'd really wanto to buy another one with or without the scabbard. Ariel?

14th October 2005, 01:05 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Ham, The only thing I can advise you is to get a full-size Laz Bicagi and try to wield it in any way you wish (sa long as it is far from your nose...). After that do the same with kinjal and shashka. Then you will understand. BTW, was gauntlet sword (see above) reminescent of Pata?

14th October 2005, 06:23 PM	#4
Ahriman Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Hungary Posts: 72	I have an idea, Ariel. Send me pictures, good, close pictures of a simple black sea yataghan with quite exact sizes. As both my ex and current girlfriend, and my best friend, and me myself like the shape, I'll have to make one soon. So I'll make the sword by the sent parameters soon after receiving them. And sharpen it fully, of course. And do a little test-cutting, both with hacking cuts and with draw cuts on a nice big piece of meat. If I can cut down to the upper area of the bone with the draw-cut, and if I can repeat it three times, we won. If not, then choose any simple, undecorated piece of armour, I'll make it for free. But if we won, I'll hand over the sword to my ex-girlfriend... and if even she can cut down to the bone (not into it, she's rather weak nowadays), we'll get the original sword. Deal? BTW, test-cutting on meat is a very good thing. It won't dull your blades much, and you'll have an idea of their cutting power. I could almost behead a hog with one strike with my old dopplehander. A dead hog, of course. Mostly dieing from sickness, so it was free prey to our blades. ("Almost" means that I mostly use zornhauen with huge swords... so the lying hog's skull's lower area stopped the cut after travelling several inches in it after getting in from almost the back. The spine was cleaved through anyway.) BTW, I think it bears more similarity with the greek version. Lighter blade, though. And it's similar to a few acinaces' as well.

15th October 2005, 03:03 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Ahriman, Dead hogs do not strike back (ex-girlfriends and, especially, ex-wives, do). I'll make you another deal: make yourself a copy of Laz Bicagi including the horned pommel; I'll get a shashka and we fence. Whoever wins, takes the opponent to the ER. Trust me, the range of movements for Laz Bicagi is so limited and awkward, I'll be the driver at the end.... I tried just now to strike a tree branch (very thin, of course) with it . The curvature is so crazy that I couldn't judge the distance and the horned pommel got tangled in my sleeve. It is just not a very good weapon, although it is very show-y and exotic. If we think about it, there are very few basic forms of fighting blades all over the world. Just from experience people of different cultures ended up with similar ideas: curved for slashing, straight for stabbing ,recurved for extra slashing force and some stabbing etc. Laz Bichagi stands unique and for a good reason.

18th October 2005, 12:22 PM	#7
Miyamoto Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 44	WOOW! I went out fishing a couple of days and look here what an interesting debate we have! Thank you guys for sharing information! Geographikal origin: I think, after reading all that opinions and after seeing all that evidences that it has to be Ottoman Black Sea region, intended for ship boarding. Power: I'm a kendo and iaido student and I own a black sea yathagan, so I can tell you from the first hand. It is really terrbile to handle, just believe Ariel and me. Not balanced, difficult to draw from scabbard, difficult to yudge the distance, ecc. Give me a katana (or even a Wakizashi) and I'll be able to kill almost instantly the bastard who'd be so stupidly brave to challenge me. Metaforically speaking, I intend. ORIGINS: It is really unapropried for combat either from horse or ground. I think that it originated from classic yatagan, wich from my point of view is verry unapropriate for close combat in small crowded areas like a ship would be with all that balustrades, railings, cords, masts ecc. They just added a curvature to enhance the rebounding, recoiling action of the weapon against various obsatcles. Just think of a combat in a small corridor... With an ordinary yathagan will stick to the wall and the warrior instantly killed. For fighting in areas full of obstacles a weapon has to have different point compatred to a classic yataghan, so the warrior could make stabbing actions also. Just think for a moment that you are in a middle of combat on sea and tha you have to cut a rope avoidng to hit the mast? With all other longlike weapons would be nearly impossible. All the facts supports the piracy proposal of that weapon. Another fact supporting that teory is that it is a verry rare weapon. Limited usage - limited production. Kinjals I think were to heavy and also the combat style, wich take a lot of space were inapropriate for ship boarding. The shashka being a cavalry rather long sword was also unapropriate. Another thing: Some of them really could be north african origin. Look, being used by sailors, and beeing so apropriate for naval boardings it makes a perfect weapon for such purpose, wich was maybe copied in shape by local smiths in the ports around the whole meditteranean area. The knopesh (a verry different usage, more like a sickle) and especially the flissa (what it has rally in common???) have really nothing to do with it. About pommel: The two horned pommel has obviously a purpose. I think that it derives from classic yataghan pommel. Thoose tho horns, from my point of view, is also an extreme close cobat solution for attacking the eyes of an enemy wich has came too close for slashing or stabbing him. So we have here, what i think, a perfect boarding weapon in all of its aspects. (wich is obviously extremly unapropriate for all other kinds of usage) Regarding my previous topic: I'd really wanto to buy another one with or without the scabbard. Ariel?