black sea yataghan

Ahriman · 12th October 2005, 10:15 AM

..?
I mean, how thin is "too thin"? 1-2mm at the foible is absolutely enough (in my experience, at least) for cleaving through meat and thinner bones without bending... and if you do a little calculation, you'll see that most european cutting blades (sorry for always using them as examples) have a thickness at about that at the foible, even as they were needed to face rigid plate defense. After all, why would it be called "foible"?

Balance: I didn't have a chance to wield one so far, but I don't think that it'd have a worse balance than my training swords... 50cm from the quillon for a 110cm "blade", overall weight being 12 kg... It strenghtens the wrist quite well... after that, anything lighter or better balanced will feel like feathers. And I think that a more forward balance point will do better for slashes, just as in the case of machetes.
When I was practising in a gladiator school as a dimacheris (two-sworder), I used almost exactly the same blade shape, with forward balance... They were good for me.

Pommel: A question has arised in me. Isn't it possible that they used the same "thumb grip" as the europeans? I mean, there are a few cuts (zwerchau and krumphau) where you "turn" the hilt with 90° in your hands, so the long edge is to the left, while the short is to the right.
In the case of yataghans, it would place the point to the "outside" and the edge to the "inside".
The question came from the posted picture. It looks like that the hilt is wider in the "wrong" direction... so it would be comfortable if you grip it in the thumb grip... so with extended arms the blade would be paralell to the ground. This way, you could use it either for cutting or thursting... try doing a few zwerchauen with it... it would make descending cuts more difficult, but not impossible, while making ascending cuts easier and faster, and making it possible to use the zwerch, which can instantly stop a descending cut while killing the opponent...
And you could use it for bashing thrusts aside. Imagine a low or central straight thrust coming towards you for sake of simplicity. If you make a wipe with the blade, you'll have the point at about the groin of the attacker. A little upward wrist move... Btw, this is almost the krumphau. And you can take out most strikes with it.

Sorry for the long post, I could tell you the same in about 2-3 sentences in my native language... If you can't understand, I can shot a few videos showing my idea. Or if I'm talking absolute idiotisms, or something that is well-known already, tell me, and shoot me down.

Rivkin · 12th October 2005, 05:04 PM

Dear All,

I have no objections to Ariel's citations - indeed when reading ancient and not so ancient sources one finds rather generalized depictions of nations. I'm not the most very sensitive man. There are two points I would like to emphasize here. Laz is a western georgian subethnicity. Laz language is very similar to megrelian (margali). As all western georgian kingdoms, Trabzon empire was founded under the heavy influence and colonization of greeks. During its existance it declared its origins to be the roman empire, and therefore was often called the same way everyone from Greece to Anatolia was called now and then - awlad-al Rum, Rumla etc.

Concerning the military capabilities they were recruited into mamluk core, in less numbers than megrels per se, but mostly due to the fact that megrels paid tributes in slaves to surrounding muslim kingdoms and their princes, Dadiani were known for pathological cruelty and slave trade. However, Laz traditionally have been recruited by Ottoman navy.

There are 4 georgian tribes that fell under the rule of islamic - mesh', laz, fedaryn (captives in iran) and parts of adjars. Laz have been the first, and they are the most islamized and assilimilated (turkisized) nation. Today most of them identify themselves as turks.

Concerning "deception and evil". Among some people (in particular eastern georgians), megrels in general are called ... "jews". The perception is that they are smarter than neighbors and traditionally, rather than joining up cavalry units, they act as spies, informants, torturers and assasins. Late Beria was a megrel (even through Stalin preferred Guria), and so were many of middleeastern dictators - Ali-Bey, Ibrahim-Bey, Murad-Bey. Among megrels themselves such depiction oftenly is not considered to be something shameful, despite two other things to which they traditionally tie themselves - mamluk service and the navy.

Concerning Laz I did hear such depictions indeed. I also heard (in masses) anecdotes about Laz in which they were portrayd as a nation of mafia, song-writing and dumbness. Laz themselves, on the contrary, often believe to possess superior bravery and viciousness in comparison with turks.

If you want my personal view, these generalized depictions have really not much to do with the reality, but knowing them in the historical context can be rather interesting, since in old times jobs were given to people based on perception of their race, rather than on individual abilities (and btw this did not change much).

12th October 2005, 10:15 AM	#1
Ahriman Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Hungary Posts: 72	..? I mean, how thin is "too thin"? 1-2mm at the foible is absolutely enough (in my experience, at least) for cleaving through meat and thinner bones without bending... and if you do a little calculation, you'll see that most european cutting blades (sorry for always using them as examples) have a thickness at about that at the foible, even as they were needed to face rigid plate defense. After all, why would it be called "foible"? Balance: I didn't have a chance to wield one so far, but I don't think that it'd have a worse balance than my training swords... 50cm from the quillon for a 110cm "blade", overall weight being 12 kg... It strenghtens the wrist quite well... after that, anything lighter or better balanced will feel like feathers. And I think that a more forward balance point will do better for slashes, just as in the case of machetes. When I was practising in a gladiator school as a dimacheris (two-sworder), I used almost exactly the same blade shape, with forward balance... They were good for me. Pommel: A question has arised in me. Isn't it possible that they used the same "thumb grip" as the europeans? I mean, there are a few cuts (zwerchau and krumphau) where you "turn" the hilt with 90° in your hands, so the long edge is to the left, while the short is to the right. In the case of yataghans, it would place the point to the "outside" and the edge to the "inside". The question came from the posted picture. It looks like that the hilt is wider in the "wrong" direction... so it would be comfortable if you grip it in the thumb grip... so with extended arms the blade would be paralell to the ground. This way, you could use it either for cutting or thursting... try doing a few zwerchauen with it... it would make descending cuts more difficult, but not impossible, while making ascending cuts easier and faster, and making it possible to use the zwerch, which can instantly stop a descending cut while killing the opponent... And you could use it for bashing thrusts aside. Imagine a low or central straight thrust coming towards you for sake of simplicity. If you make a wipe with the blade, you'll have the point at about the groin of the attacker. A little upward wrist move... Btw, this is almost the krumphau. And you can take out most strikes with it. Sorry for the long post, I could tell you the same in about 2-3 sentences in my native language... If you can't understand, I can shot a few videos showing my idea. Or if I'm talking absolute idiotisms, or something that is well-known already, tell me, and shoot me down.

12th October 2005, 05:04 PM	#2
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Dear All, I have no objections to Ariel's citations - indeed when reading ancient and not so ancient sources one finds rather generalized depictions of nations. I'm not the most very sensitive man. There are two points I would like to emphasize here. Laz is a western georgian subethnicity. Laz language is very similar to megrelian (margali). As all western georgian kingdoms, Trabzon empire was founded under the heavy influence and colonization of greeks. During its existance it declared its origins to be the roman empire, and therefore was often called the same way everyone from Greece to Anatolia was called now and then - awlad-al Rum, Rumla etc. Concerning the military capabilities they were recruited into mamluk core, in less numbers than megrels per se, but mostly due to the fact that megrels paid tributes in slaves to surrounding muslim kingdoms and their princes, Dadiani were known for pathological cruelty and slave trade. However, Laz traditionally have been recruited by Ottoman navy. There are 4 georgian tribes that fell under the rule of islamic - mesh', laz, fedaryn (captives in iran) and parts of adjars. Laz have been the first, and they are the most islamized and assilimilated (turkisized) nation. Today most of them identify themselves as turks. Concerning "deception and evil". Among some people (in particular eastern georgians), megrels in general are called ... "jews". The perception is that they are smarter than neighbors and traditionally, rather than joining up cavalry units, they act as spies, informants, torturers and assasins. Late Beria was a megrel (even through Stalin preferred Guria), and so were many of middleeastern dictators - Ali-Bey, Ibrahim-Bey, Murad-Bey. Among megrels themselves such depiction oftenly is not considered to be something shameful, despite two other things to which they traditionally tie themselves - mamluk service and the navy. Concerning Laz I did hear such depictions indeed. I also heard (in masses) anecdotes about Laz in which they were portrayd as a nation of mafia, song-writing and dumbness. Laz themselves, on the contrary, often believe to possess superior bravery and viciousness in comparison with turks. If you want my personal view, these generalized depictions have really not much to do with the reality, but knowing them in the historical context can be rather interesting, since in old times jobs were given to people based on perception of their race, rather than on individual abilities (and btw this did not change much).