sword for id

Cerjak · 5th April 2013, 04:25 PM

who could tell me more about this sword.
markings MOLE & WD
blade 31''
origin, age ?

laEspadaAncha · 5th April 2013, 06:31 PM

I wish I could provide a more definitive answer, but for some reason the words "India" and "Jim McDougall" come to mind...

The cant of the hilt relative to the axis of the blade reminds me more of some Prussian/German late-19th century patterns than it does any corresponding British pattern infantry sword (Mole produced blades under contract for the crown for quite some time). Furthermore, as far as I can see, all the late, straight-bladed British patterns had a single, wide fuller, as opposed to the small, narrow fuller as shown in your example. Lastly, that funky, two-bar hilt doesn't resonate in the slightest (somebody needs to turn on the giant, Winnebago-shaped spotlight

)...

So, I guess I'm going to go with either a) an offshore contract or repurposed blade for a commonwealth (most likely India IMO), or b) a later Indian-made non-reg pattern, Frankenblade, or repro fantasy piece.

thinreadline · 9th April 2013, 08:48 AM

It is certainly not 'right' , it is not a British sword despite WD & Mole, and although I believe Mole did make swords under contract, theses would NOT be marked WD obviously . I agree with laEspadaAncha about its origins ... but would add that the kindest interpretation is that it a composite mismatch of hilt and blade . I recall in the early 1970s World Wide Arms used to have for sale all sorts of weird stuff of recent manufacture in India and lots of it had spurious 'Mole' or 'Manton' markings but were mere fantasy pieces. As time progressed they got better at it !

CutlassCollector · 9th April 2013, 02:38 PM

It's an odd looking combination of blade and hilt. The hilt looks similar to, or a copy of, a 19th century coastguard cutlass with the quillion removed. Same hilt with short curved cutlass blade - see photos.
There is also an Army Hospital Corps sword with a similar hilt/guard in Harvey Withers's World Sword's. CC

Cerjak · 9th April 2013, 03:42 PM

Yes it is Exact ,now I can see that the quillon was broken and it's why we can see a difference of color in the hilt.( you could see it in the picture with Mole marks)
I don't think that it is a copy but a sword with damaged hilt.
Thank you for your help

Cerjak

CutlassCollector · 9th April 2013, 10:05 PM

Hi Cerjak, pleased to be able to help. Can't help with the blade though.
Mine is a cutlass - see picture and the Hospital Corps sword blade is not like your blade either - one can be viewed at antiquearmsandarmour.com
CC

thinreadline · 10th April 2013, 01:07 AM

Its got to be a hybrid, maybe the 2 parts are genuine in their own right , but I dont think they ever belonged together.

Jim McDougall · 10th April 2013, 03:43 AM

Chris, thank you so much for the kind note!!!

Saw the Winnebago light, but you guys already nailed this one.
I think I recall the swords of the world or whatever it was, think it was a guy in Missouri?

Mole indeed did contract for Wilkinson, and with many swords destined for India...Ive seen many forms.....but this...nooo! I believe Mole was bought by Wilkinson about 1921.
The Mole name did occur on blades, but never on the forte, always on the back of the blade. The WD (=war dept.) was often stamped, but never with the MOLE name. This one is quite creative, cant help but think that blade looks like an Imperial Prussian officers sword with scabbard, the hilt as has been noted one of the hospital, cutlass swords with cast iron grips.

Thanks again Chris!

All the best,
Jim

laEspadaAncha · 10th April 2013, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Chris, thank you so much for the kind note!!!

Saw the Winnebago light, but you guys already nailed this one.
I think I recall the swords of the world or whatever it was, think it was a guy in Missouri?

Mole indeed did contract for Wilkinson, and with many swords destined for India...Ive seen many forms.....but this...nooo! I believe Mole was bought by Wilkinson about 1921.
The Mole name did occur on blades, but never on the forte, always on the back of the blade. The WD (=war dept.) was often stamped, but never with the MOLE name. This one is quite creative, cant help but think that blade looks like an Imperial Prussian officers sword with scabbard, the hilt as has been noted one of the hospital, cutlass swords with cast iron grips.

Thanks again Chris!

All the best,
Jim

CutlassCollector · 10th April 2013, 12:56 PM

I agree with the composite theory.
I know cutlasses are a little different but Mole stamped it's name together with Birmingham on the 1900 model Naval cutlass on the blade. See picture. And Wilkinson and London were stamped on the blade for it's version of the 1900 model. In both cases the spine held the last two digits of the year. Both had the arrow and inspectors mark + the X indicating the direction of the bend test. CC

A Senefelder · 10th April 2013, 01:09 PM

I agree that this is some sort of composite piece. I wanted only to note that the straight blade and the particular curvature of the hilt and the angle at which its set to the blade put me in mind of the Patton 1913 and its very close english cousin. The set of the hilt in relation to the blade puts the sword in a perfectly straight line with the arm when the arm is extended in the same manner as the 1913 does for use " running through " an opponent in a cavalry charge ( according to the cavalry doctrine of the pre WWI era ). May not be of any significance at all, just something I noticed.

Jim McDougall · 10th April 2013, 09:27 PM

LOL! Chris, thats priceless!!!

Good call Alan, I had completely forgotten about the British M1908, and that would nicely explain the MOLE stamp in that location, though most of these I have seen were stamped Wilkinson. Since Mole was in effect working with Wilkinson at that time for the India dept. seems quite plausible.

As noted also, the high tierce position in arm straight in cavalry charge would be well noted.

5th April 2013, 04:25 PM	#1
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	sword for id who could tell me more about this sword. markings MOLE & WD blade 31'' origin, age ? Attached Images

9th April 2013, 02:38 PM	#4
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 331	It's an odd looking combination of blade and hilt. The hilt looks similar to, or a copy of, a 19th century coastguard cutlass with the quillion removed. Same hilt with short curved cutlass blade - see photos. There is also an Army Hospital Corps sword with a similar hilt/guard in Harvey Withers's World Sword's. CC Attached Images

9th April 2013, 10:05 PM	#6
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 331	Hi Cerjak, pleased to be able to help. Can't help with the blade though. Mine is a cutlass - see picture and the Hospital Corps sword blade is not like your blade either - one can be viewed at antiquearmsandarmour.com CC Attached Images

10th April 2013, 12:56 PM	#10
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 331	I agree with the composite theory. I know cutlasses are a little different but Mole stamped it's name together with Birmingham on the 1900 model Naval cutlass on the blade. See picture. And Wilkinson and London were stamped on the blade for it's version of the 1900 model. In both cases the spine held the last two digits of the year. Both had the arrow and inspectors mark + the X indicating the direction of the bend test. CC Attached Images

5th April 2013, 06:31 PM	#2
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	I wish I could provide a more definitive answer, but for some reason the words "India" and "Jim McDougall" come to mind... The cant of the hilt relative to the axis of the blade reminds me more of some Prussian/German late-19th century patterns than it does any corresponding British pattern infantry sword (Mole produced blades under contract for the crown for quite some time). Furthermore, as far as I can see, all the late, straight-bladed British patterns had a single, wide fuller, as opposed to the small, narrow fuller as shown in your example. Lastly, that funky, two-bar hilt doesn't resonate in the slightest (somebody needs to turn on the giant, Winnebago-shaped spotlight )... So, I guess I'm going to go with either a) an offshore contract or repurposed blade for a commonwealth (most likely India IMO), or b) a later Indian-made non-reg pattern, Frankenblade, or repro fantasy piece.

9th April 2013, 08:48 AM	#3
thinreadline Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Wirral Posts: 1,204	It is certainly not 'right' , it is not a British sword despite WD & Mole, and although I believe Mole did make swords under contract, theses would NOT be marked WD obviously . I agree with laEspadaAncha about its origins ... but would add that the kindest interpretation is that it a composite mismatch of hilt and blade . I recall in the early 1970s World Wide Arms used to have for sale all sorts of weird stuff of recent manufacture in India and lots of it had spurious 'Mole' or 'Manton' markings but were mere fantasy pieces. As time progressed they got better at it !

9th April 2013, 03:42 PM	#5
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	Yes it is Exact ,now I can see that the quillon was broken and it's why we can see a difference of color in the hilt.( you could see it in the picture with Mole marks) I don't think that it is a copy but a sword with damaged hilt. Thank you for your help Cerjak

10th April 2013, 01:07 AM	#7
thinreadline Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Wirral Posts: 1,204	Its got to be a hybrid, maybe the 2 parts are genuine in their own right , but I dont think they ever belonged together.

10th April 2013, 03:43 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Chris, thank you so much for the kind note!!! Saw the Winnebago light, but you guys already nailed this one. I think I recall the swords of the world or whatever it was, think it was a guy in Missouri? Mole indeed did contract for Wilkinson, and with many swords destined for India...Ive seen many forms.....but this...nooo! I believe Mole was bought by Wilkinson about 1921. The Mole name did occur on blades, but never on the forte, always on the back of the blade. The WD (=war dept.) was often stamped, but never with the MOLE name. This one is quite creative, cant help but think that blade looks like an Imperial Prussian officers sword with scabbard, the hilt as has been noted one of the hospital, cutlass swords with cast iron grips. Thanks again Chris! All the best, Jim

10th April 2013, 01:09 PM	#11
A Senefelder Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 214	I agree that this is some sort of composite piece. I wanted only to note that the straight blade and the particular curvature of the hilt and the angle at which its set to the blade put me in mind of the Patton 1913 and its very close english cousin. The set of the hilt in relation to the blade puts the sword in a perfectly straight line with the arm when the arm is extended in the same manner as the 1913 does for use " running through " an opponent in a cavalry charge ( according to the cavalry doctrine of the pre WWI era ). May not be of any significance at all, just something I noticed.

10th April 2013, 09:27 PM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	LOL! Chris, thats priceless!!! Good call Alan, I had completely forgotten about the British M1908, and that would nicely explain the MOLE stamp in that location, though most of these I have seen were stamped Wilkinson. Since Mole was in effect working with Wilkinson at that time for the India dept. seems quite plausible. As noted also, the high tierce position in arm straight in cavalry charge would be well noted.