Moro Kris with Twist Core

[George]

Hello all. I've been reading the forum for some time now and decided to post a few photos of a Moro Kris I have that has a center section of twist core. The knowledge that has gathered here is a source that is unquestionably invaluable. Any information pertaining to the origin of this type of sword would be greatly appreciated.

The details are:
Overall Length: 26 1/2 ”
Blade Length: 21 5/8 ”
Blade Width: 1 1/8 “
Blade Thickness @ gangya: 1/2 “
Scabbard Length: 23 7/8 “

As quoted by a good friend:
"The straight double edged blade forged with a peripheral “mantle” of hard, lamellar steel flanking two rows of twisted cores in a very regular and controlled pattern. The cores are deeply etched to create a visual effect governed more by topography than by color contrast. The junction between the edge mantle and the central cores is defined by an inlay of copper/silver alloy, the design terminating in a stylized “serpent head” motif near the tip."

Thanks for any help.

[VVV]

Very nice Kris!

I got a lot of feedback on mine, with a similar center, in this thread

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=798

Michael

[kai]

Great start for coming out of lurking mode, George - welcome among the k(e)risofanatics!

That's a museum quality piece with apparently original fittings...

Following Cato this would be a Maranao piece, of course.

I really like these small kakatua pommels! I'm not sure if the topographical etch is really original but it's nice and I certainly wouldn't mess with it. Could you please post pics of the reverse side? I'm especially curious wether that arrow-like pattern design at the base of the blade is intentional (I'd guess so).

Regards,
Kai

[nechesh]

Welcome George!
I know this isn't particularly helpful but.....DR L !!!

[Lew]

Welcome George!

I must say that is a very nice kris The core is actually made up of two twisted rods forged welded together. We were discussing this type of blade construction at Ashokan this year. I saw a pic of a Moro kris last year that was a seven bar composite blade. These types of complex multi-bar composite kris were forged only by the most skilled bladesmiths. I wonder if these smiths were trained or apprenticed somewhere other than the Philippines or maybe picked up the technique from a Chinese smith working in the region? We saw a few Chinese dao sabers with the same construction at the seminar this month so it is possible that these kris could have been made by chinese smiths living in the Philippines?

Regards

Lew

[Ian]

Welcome George.

That is a lovely Maranao kris, perhaps early 20th C. from its overall size and style. The central portion with twisted rod construction is particularly well done. The treatment of the edges and tip is similar to a large sword for which I posted pictures recently.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...tid=6047&stc=1
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...tid=6048&stc=1

My sword was commissioned in 1930 from a panday in Lanao del Sur by a U.S. administrator.

Ian.

[Lew]

Ian

your link is a photo of a replica broad sword?????


Lew

[Battara]

George, thank you for posting this puppy. Though not unheard of, it is seldom that you see twist core in Moro, especially double twist core like yours. Amazing. You see more of this in earlier pieces than later.

Regarding the panday training, I'm not sure that is had to be some one Chinese. I have a double twist core Bagobo piece and there are not many (if any) Chinese living in that area.

I also like the silver inlay.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Ian

your link is a photo of a replica broad sword?????


Lew

Correct Lew. A Moro-made broadsword from 1930. I was referring to the treatment of the tip, which is common to that sword and the one shown above -- unusual style for Moro work IMO.

Ian.

[George]

Kai,

Here is a quick shot of the other side of the blade. It has the arrow-like pattern you speak of but with a slightly different shape to it; a bit less pronunciation which I attribute to hammering.

My experience with Chinese swords is that twist core of this creation (control in pattern, uniformity, etc.) is found in older pieces (pre-20th century at minimum). But the material on the scabbard reminds me of what is found in WWII frogs, etc.

Thanks for the comments.
George

[George]

Hi All,

I noticed my last photo submittal was a bit out of focus after uploading it. Here is, I hope, a better shot.

George

[kai]

Originally Posted by George

Here is a quick shot of the other side of the blade. It has the arrow-like pattern you speak of but with a slightly different shape to it; a bit less pronunciation which I attribute to hammering.

Thanks, George! That are 2 additional twist cores to account for the broadening of the blade! I'd posit that actually the pattern on the right side is what the panday had in mind, and that it happened to work out less perfectly on the left side...

My experience with Chinese swords is that twist core of this creation (control in pattern, uniformity, etc.) is found in older pieces (pre-20th century at minimum).

There certainly were Chinese steel blades being exported to the Philippines as evinced by Barong blades with Chinese marks. However, considering the long history of twist core Moro kris blades, I'd assume that this ranti was locally forged by a Moro panday.

But the material on the scabbard reminds me of what is found in WWII frogs, etc.

I believe the scabbard to be older than that - it seems more likely to me that fittings were added later or just got replaced...

Regards,
Kai

[Rick]

Hi George here are some detail pictures of another Maranao twist core kris .
This blade has a wide shallow fuller incorporating the single twist ; you can also see a longer less distinctive 'arrow' feature on each side of the blade . In the case of this particular example I cannot help but wonder if this feature helps to incorporate the applied edges with the core for extra strength .

Pardon the much manipulated pictures as this blade is not topographically etched and the details are very hard to bring out .

[philkid]

Hi George, very nice Moro keris you got there. I personally sell Moro swords for some time now and haven't seen something like it. May I ask where did you get this beauty?

Regards
Charles

[Battara]

Philkid, I have been thinking about what you have said for a while now. I think one of the reasons you have not seen the twist core there anymore is that probably most of them are under ground buried with the dead of the Moro-American Wars and the rest were taken at the turn of the century by Americans. This may be why we see more of them here in the US (and more of the fossil molar ivory pommeled Moro pieces, few that exist).

[kai]

Hi Battara & Charles,

I do believe that there are still quite a few quality pieces in Moroland (and the Philippines in general). However, they will usually be closely guarded family treasures and not available to the public (for several valid reasons ), and pretty unlikely to change hands. Whereas "souvenirs" brought back by soldiers may be appreciated by the person who obtained it but more rarely enter true family heritage status. So, when grandpa dies, stuff gets sold off. That's a good thing since these real pieces of history will hopefully end up with sincere collectors with genuine interest in Moro art & culture and the knowledge to take care of these treasures. I'd expect that, in the future, more and more kris will be acquired and brought back into the Philippines (as has been happening with precious Japanese and Chinese blades).

Regards,
Kai

[Spunjer]

philkid,

i'm with battara on this one. for starters, it appears to be that the twisted core is not a common type of kris. i also believe that whatever's left there (swords in general) are closely guarded family secret. i was informed by my uncle (by marriage) who's a muslim, that there'a a belief among the moro people that to part with pusakas (heirlooms) are considered very bad luck. i'm not saying everyone believe in this, but for the few (and i mean, very few!) that sell their family heirloom anyway, the chances of it having a twisted core like the one above is very, very slim...

[George]

Hi Charles (philkid),

I am not sure of the history of this piece but a friend of mine who knows of my interest in well made pieces of steel got me this one. He's in California. He's not a dealer but is always looking for those interesting pieces whether for himself or for anyone he knows who would have interest.

George

[philkid]

I agree with you Kai. I know an on Maranao and he told me that most of the swords the Americans brought back during the war were mostly without any importance to them. The ones they treasure were buried to avoid being taken. New generations of Moros do not really follow traditions anymore so they tend to sell off there heirlooms. Well I hope they sell it to me. Of course so I can show it to you guys here at the forum.

[Battara]

I don't know about all of the Moro pieces being brought over to the US weren't important to them. Some couldn't say because they were dead. It is a shame, however, that the new generations of Moros don't have an appreciation of their forebearers symbols of resistance and the warrior. Yes, I suppose good for those of us who collect, but I hope that when they do come back to appreciating their heritage, it won't be too late.

[kai]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

it appears to be that the twisted core is not a common type of kris.

My point was that these fancy kris were limited to the more affluent non-commoners. These are more likely to have been able to protect their property (if they managed to survive the actual battles) and also less likely to be forced to sell off heirlooms by pure financial necessity later on. They may also be more likely (to be able) to hold to Moro traditions than really poor people who have to concentrate on mere survival in a changing world...

That pretty much fits with what we see: workhorse kris seem to come available locally (especially from Mindanao) on a regular basis whereas more fancy kris are pretty rare - coming out of the vendors backrooms only if deemed profitable. Thus, I'm not disputing that it's more likely to come across twisted core kris (and other fancy kris) in the US. However, I don't think that this is because there are very few left in Moroland though.

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

I know an on Maranao and he told me that most of the swords the Americans brought back during the war were mostly without any importance to them.

Well, IMVHO the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Unless his usage of "most" means 51% (which is obviously true since there weren't enough Datu kris to satisfy all serving US soldiers ) the statement is certainly wrong as shown by the sheer number of very high quality kris in US (as well as Spanish) collections. However, it seems safe to assume that most of these "souvenirs" weren't given away voluntarily...

Regards,
Kai

[Battara]

One of my points exactly Kai.

[Bill]

One of the best, thanks for sharing. I've been told, by two seperate sources, that the best of the "Moro" swords are in private Manila collections. I tend to believe it.

[philkid]

Kai, I couldn't agree with you more. It was most likely taken by force. :