Kalis with unusual Lamination

Spunjer · 3rd February 2013, 07:19 PM

i'd like to call this the "Almost Kalis". the pommel is "almost" like one of those superlative junggayan. the wing appendages are about as wide as those junggayan krises but the beak and tail were simplified into the more normal types.
then i decided to etch the blade, to see if it is laminated. i was ecstatic to see twistcore then about a third down, i was like, "what the...?" from twistcore, it went to the skunk stripe lamination pattern. seems like it just petered out on me. both sides were like these. an "almost" twistcore blade...
the twistcore covered the upper third. notice how it's all the way to the trunk. the katik is laminated as well, but it's the more average type.

comments on this unusual kalis?

CharlesS · 3rd February 2013, 09:43 PM

Very interesting....never seen a Moro kriss with that short of twist core/lamination mix. Looks like something more likely to be seen on an Indonesian keris. Obviously a very talented smith.

kai · 4th February 2013, 12:58 AM

Congrats, Ron, that's a special one for sure!

The chunky pommel is not my cup of tea - how does it influence handling the sword?

The blade is obviously pattern welded and intentionally so - I like it! Also, it makes kinda sense to restrict the twistcore to the broader part of the blade and go for the linear pattern towards the tip (if you decide to go for more than a single pamor).

I do wonder why we haven't seen more of these in Moro/Malay kris? On a side note: While adeg pattern welding is rare in Moro kris to begin with, I believe that one could argue that the linear pattern seems to be even rarer than the famed twistcore pattern!

BTW, is that the best etch/stain you can obtain? (I'd believe this kind of quality work would suit a stronger contrast if possible...)

Regards,
Kai

Spunjer · 4th February 2013, 02:41 AM

Actually Kai, the balance is excellent on this one, given that the pommel is quite chunky. Perhaps the reason why the beak and tail were abbreviated. Had the carver went all out, it might have been a tad top heavy. The blade is a bit narrower than the average blade of a big junggayan kris.
As far as etching, i try not to make the blade black, especially the edges. This was starting to turn real dark; i have to rescrub it with 0000 steel wool. Actually, it's quite obvious in real life. I was having a hard time taking pictures of it...
It seems that real prominent linear pattern were relatively more common on older blades. To see it on a later blade was a surprise to me.
So are these type of mixed pamor quite common in indonesian blades? if it does, what's the significance of it?

P.S.
Kai, what is adeg pattern welding?

kino · 4th February 2013, 06:34 AM

A very handsome Kris. I must admit, I like that pommel.
I have a similar kris that starts off looking like it had leopard spots for the first 2 inches, then continues to having a linear pattern. I'm not sure if mine is twist core like yours.

Gotta give it to you Spunjer, you've been busy finding nice swords. Share the wealth, brah!

Spunjer · 4th February 2013, 01:37 PM

post the leopard skin lamination, kino... you sure it's not twistcore?

lol, found this in an antique store...

CharlesS · 4th February 2013, 01:52 PM

Spunjer, you magnet to Moro beauties....and I do mean swords!

"Adeg" loosely translates into "hairs standing", or "hair standing on end" as allusion to the many straight lines found in the lamination pattern.

I agree with you completely that the sword should not be darkened further. The way you have it now is more likely to be the way it was seen my Moros in its day. Though Battara has shown us some nice examples of heavily darkened Moro blades, I believe those are generally anomalies to lighter etching, more typically done by citric acids. I think your's is truer to form as is.

I am not sure I agree with the assertion that the laminated blades are rarer than the twistcore examples....certainly this would not be true of the many examples I have seen. Of course, on the other hand, we would have to examine an ENORMOUS number of blades to make any such assertion credible.

T. Koch · 4th February 2013, 02:17 PM

That is some truly gorgeous pattern-welding, thanks so much for sharing, Spunjer and congratulations on your new toy!

If one wanted to do a darker etch, how should one go about it? I am a total newb to this etching business, but I do think I feel an addiction coming on.

All the best and enjoy it in good health, - Thor

Spunjer · 4th February 2013, 10:35 PM

Hello Thor,
Thank you! As far as lamination, i find ferric chloride tend to have darker results than vinegar or any type of citric acid. On this particular blade, i used white vinegar. They're easier to control than FeCl. I believe i applied about three coats before neutralizing the vinegar with baking soda.

kai · 5th February 2013, 11:03 AM

Hello Charles,

Quote:

I agree with you completely that the sword should not be darkened further. The way you have it now is more likely to be the way it was seen my Moros in its day. Though Battara has shown us some nice examples of heavily darkened Moro blades, I believe those are generally anomalies to lighter etching, more typically done by citric acids. I think your's is truer to form as is.

Setting aside taste and personal preferences, I believe this needs to be discussed/researched much more before we can reach any conclusions about long-gone traditions.

Quote:

"Adeg" loosely translates into "hairs standing", or "hair standing on end" as allusion to the many straight lines found in the lamination pattern.

The main point being that the lamination kinda "stands up" from the plane of the blade (i.e. usually more or less vertical) which is true for twistcore and this kind of linear pattern.

As opposed to the mlumah construction where the layers of lamination are arranged more or less parallel to the plane of the blade (local "irregularities" notwithstanding). In also very rare cases (regarding Moro/Malay kris), it can be safely assumed this was intentionally done to create a specific/ornate/complex pattern while in the majority of cases the pamor seems more like "random" mottling. Still, it often can be seen that the panday was working with a obvious goal in his mind and in another good part of the blades, the pattern was used to obtain even more striking visual effects (usually a kind of contour effect like on topographical maps) which include variants with another kind of linear pattern.

Quote:

I am not sure I agree with the assertion that the laminated blades are rarer than the twistcore examples...

I referred only to linear adeg vs twistcore adeg. Both are rare and there may be a sampling bias towards twistcore; still, I believe the difference in numbers is quite striking!

Regards,
Kai

T. Koch · 6th February 2013, 06:35 AM

Aha, thanks for the info! So far I've only tried my luck with warm vinegar. I will have to try getting my hands on some FeCl and get on with the experiments!

With grattitude, - Thor

kai · 6th February 2013, 10:18 AM

Hello Thor,

Quote:

So far I've only tried my luck with warm vinegar. I will have to try getting my hands on some FeCl and get on with the experiments!

FeCl3 is really corrosive - think of hydrochloric acid (HCl) with some rust added! Make sure to read the scattered threads touching on etching and verify that your neutralizing really works!

Regards,
Kai

Spunjer · 6th February 2013, 04:14 PM

regarding the term "adeg/mlumah":
*i'm really not familiar with indonesian terminology, and it's even harder to apply those terms to what it signifies.
*
in what twistcores (moro) i've seen, i've notice that it falls in two categories: a) the rough, 3-D texture type, and the ones that are smooth types, similar to the example pictured above.
my question is, would the term "adeg/mlumah" apply to those two categories?

kai · 6th February 2013, 08:35 PM

Hello Ron,

both terms refer only to the orientation of the laminations. The surface treatment isn't covered and would depend on local Indo/Malay traditions.

I agree that utilizing central Javanese definitions/words for Moro kris is not optimal. However, the same could be argued for neighbouring cultures like Sunda in W Java. OTOH, the Jawa terminology is widely known and de facto lingua franka throughout the keris world nowadays with local terminology regrettably lost to time way too often...

Regards,
Kai

Spunjer · 7th February 2013, 01:23 PM

HTML Code:

 I agree that utilizing central Javanese definitions/words for Moro kris is not optimal. However, the same could be argued for neighbouring cultures like Sunda in W Java. OTOH, the Jawa terminology is widely known and de facto lingua franka throughout the keris world nowadays with local terminology regrettably lost to time way too often...

i kinda wonder about the Moro twistcores. i noticed that there are different patterns involved in twistcores. i do wonder if these patterns have significance not unlike the indo kerises...

kai · 10th February 2013, 01:33 AM

Hello Ron,

Quote:

i kinda wonder about the Moro twistcores. i noticed that there are different patterns involved in twistcores. i do wonder if these patterns have significance not unlike the indo kerises...

If there ever were, I'm afraid that this information might be lost forever...

There appear to be slightly different twistcore patterns in Moro kris. I'm not sure wether these are distinct/different enough to qualify for different meaning. As a working hypothesis, I am more thinking about them possibly being indicators of origin and schools of bladesmithing.

Most of the variation I have seen seems IMHO more related to quality issues though.

Regards,
Kai

Battara · 10th February 2013, 02:30 AM

I might also add that they are also earlier, perhaps pre-1890s. Most of those I have seen seem to be from 1700s to the mid 1870s.

Spunjer · 10th February 2013, 02:44 AM

I will try to compile the different variations i have observed so far...

kai · 10th February 2013, 07:55 PM

Hello Jose,

Quote:

I might also add that they are also earlier, perhaps pre-1890s. Most of those I have seen seem to be from 1700s to the mid 1870s.

Could you please elaborate: Do you refer to Moro twistcore in general?

While many twistcore blades are really old (19th c. or even archaic), I've seen "plenty" that seemed to suggest a 20th c. origin to me.

Regards,
Kai

Battara · 10th February 2013, 11:53 PM

Hi Kai,

Yes I am referring to most Moro twist cores that I have seen. As far as I have seen, they seem to have trailed off as we entered the 20th century came.

3rd February 2013, 07:19 PM	#1
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	Kalis with unusual Lamination i'd like to call this the "Almost Kalis". the pommel is "almost" like one of those superlative junggayan. the wing appendages are about as wide as those junggayan krises but the beak and tail were simplified into the more normal types. then i decided to etch the blade, to see if it is laminated. i was ecstatic to see twistcore then about a third down, i was like, "what the...?" from twistcore, it went to the skunk stripe lamination pattern. seems like it just petered out on me. both sides were like these. an "almost" twistcore blade... the twistcore covered the upper third. notice how it's all the way to the trunk. the katik is laminated as well, but it's the more average type. comments on this unusual kalis? Attached Images

4th February 2013, 02:41 AM	#4
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	Actually Kai, the balance is excellent on this one, given that the pommel is quite chunky. Perhaps the reason why the beak and tail were abbreviated. Had the carver went all out, it might have been a tad top heavy. The blade is a bit narrower than the average blade of a big junggayan kris. As far as etching, i try not to make the blade black, especially the edges. This was starting to turn real dark; i have to rescrub it with 0000 steel wool. Actually, it's quite obvious in real life. I was having a hard time taking pictures of it... It seems that real prominent linear pattern were relatively more common on older blades. To see it on a later blade was a surprise to me. So are these type of mixed pamor quite common in indonesian blades? if it does, what's the significance of it? P.S. Kai, what is adeg pattern welding? Last edited by Spunjer; 4th February 2013 at 02:56 AM.

4th February 2013, 01:52 PM	#7
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Spunjer, you magnet to Moro beauties....and I do mean swords! "Adeg" loosely translates into "hairs standing", or "hair standing on end" as allusion to the many straight lines found in the lamination pattern. I agree with you completely that the sword should not be darkened further. The way you have it now is more likely to be the way it was seen my Moros in its day. Though Battara has shown us some nice examples of heavily darkened Moro blades, I believe those are generally anomalies to lighter etching, more typically done by citric acids. I think your's is truer to form as is. I am not sure I agree with the assertion that the laminated blades are rarer than the twistcore examples....certainly this would not be true of the many examples I have seen. Of course, on the other hand, we would have to examine an ENORMOUS number of blades to make any such assertion credible. Last edited by CharlesS; 4th February 2013 at 04:16 PM.

3rd February 2013, 09:43 PM	#2
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Very interesting....never seen a Moro kriss with that short of twist core/lamination mix. Looks like something more likely to be seen on an Indonesian keris. Obviously a very talented smith.

4th February 2013, 12:58 AM	#3
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Congrats, Ron, that's a special one for sure! The chunky pommel is not my cup of tea - how does it influence handling the sword? The blade is obviously pattern welded and intentionally so - I like it! Also, it makes kinda sense to restrict the twistcore to the broader part of the blade and go for the linear pattern towards the tip (if you decide to go for more than a single pamor). I do wonder why we haven't seen more of these in Moro/Malay kris? On a side note: While adeg pattern welding is rare in Moro kris to begin with, I believe that one could argue that the linear pattern seems to be even rarer than the famed twistcore pattern! BTW, is that the best etch/stain you can obtain? (I'd believe this kind of quality work would suit a stronger contrast if possible...) Regards, Kai

4th February 2013, 06:34 AM	#5
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,002	A very handsome Kris. I must admit, I like that pommel. I have a similar kris that starts off looking like it had leopard spots for the first 2 inches, then continues to having a linear pattern. I'm not sure if mine is twist core like yours. Gotta give it to you Spunjer, you've been busy finding nice swords. Share the wealth, brah!

4th February 2013, 01:37 PM	#6
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	post the leopard skin lamination, kino... you sure it's not twistcore? lol, found this in an antique store...

4th February 2013, 02:17 PM	#8
T. Koch Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Mother North Posts: 189	That is some truly gorgeous pattern-welding, thanks so much for sharing, Spunjer and congratulations on your new toy! If one wanted to do a darker etch, how should one go about it? I am a total newb to this etching business, but I do think I feel an addiction coming on. All the best and enjoy it in good health, - Thor

4th February 2013, 10:35 PM	#9
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	Hello Thor, Thank you! As far as lamination, i find ferric chloride tend to have darker results than vinegar or any type of citric acid. On this particular blade, i used white vinegar. They're easier to control than FeCl. I believe i applied about three coats before neutralizing the vinegar with baking soda.

6th February 2013, 06:35 AM	#11
T. Koch Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Mother North Posts: 189	Aha, thanks for the info! So far I've only tried my luck with warm vinegar. I will have to try getting my hands on some FeCl and get on with the experiments! With grattitude, - Thor

6th February 2013, 04:14 PM	#13
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	regarding the term "adeg/mlumah": i'm really not familiar with indonesian terminology, and it's even harder to apply those terms to what it signifies. in what twistcores (moro) i've seen, i've notice that it falls in two categories: a) the rough, 3-D texture type, and the ones that are smooth types, similar to the example pictured above. my question is, would the term "adeg/mlumah" apply to those two categories?

6th February 2013, 08:35 PM	#14
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Ron, both terms refer only to the orientation of the laminations. The surface treatment isn't covered and would depend on local Indo/Malay traditions. I agree that utilizing central Javanese definitions/words for Moro kris is not optimal. However, the same could be argued for neighbouring cultures like Sunda in W Java. OTOH, the Jawa terminology is widely known and de facto lingua franka throughout the keris world nowadays with local terminology regrettably lost to time way too often... Regards, Kai

10th February 2013, 02:30 AM	#17
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	I might also add that they are also earlier, perhaps pre-1890s. Most of those I have seen seem to be from 1700s to the mid 1870s.

10th February 2013, 02:44 AM	#18
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	I will try to compile the different variations i have observed so far...

10th February 2013, 11:53 PM	#20
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Hi Kai, Yes I am referring to most Moro twist cores that I have seen. As far as I have seen, they seem to have trailed off as we entered the 20th century came.