Cage stirrups Origin ... age?

[Cerjak]

I just receive those 2 differents stirrups
Would anybody be able here to comment about it ,
age origin ? Military stirrups ?
Any comment will be welcome

Cerjak

[fernando]

Nice things; looking somehow like the bar guard of certain swords .
XIX century ?
Do we have members familiar with the stirrup area ?

[Jim McDougall]

I have no particular knowledge on stirrups, but think Fernando's assessment of 19th century most likely, and these are not military. If noticed between the two, the shape of the fixture to affix the strap is different, and most importantly the design within the footplate is quite different. It almost would suggest the nature of cattle brands or ranch insignia, and the developed basket guard may suggest Spanish influence, as these kinds of guards were popular in New Spain in the early 19th century on what became known as 'round tang' espada anchas.
The use of brands were common in Spanish estancias in the Southwest in these times, and perhaps these designs could be associated? The only reference I have to listings of these is unfortunately not at hand, but as always we hope some of the countless readers out there who do have such knowledge might be compelled to share this information.

[Jim McDougall]

According to Stone's pages of examples (p.585, #10) a similar form with the basket/cage type toe protection is identified as German, 17th c. (with question mark suggesting the date uncertain). As far as I can see with all the stirrup forms I have found, the 'German' attributed ones are the only ones with this 'caged' feature.

While obviously the provenance of these, which we of course do not know, would certainly lend to better classification, if they are from Europe then we might presume the German origin.

If these might be from the U.S. as I suggested earlier due to the geometrics in the footplates resembling cattle brands, I would note that German presence here in the 1840s and 50s was quite prevalent, especially here in Texas. If that were the case, these could be 'western' equivilants of the earlier German forms.

[fernando]

Hi Jim,
Indeed Stone puts the question mark on the origin and not on the age, i would say .
Despite the caged style of Stone's example inspiring the provenance of the discussed examples, there are in these units multiple allegories to the wealthy rural ambiance.
The main suspension arch resembles that of a horse shoe, the front branches look like those of a sword guard (as already approached) and the foot plates seem to be featuring cattle irons or Ranch insignia, as you have well put.
Somehow this feature set doesn't suggest Germanic provenance ... but i know nothing

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

According to Stone's pages of examples (p.585, #10) a similar form with the basket/cage type toe protection is identified as German, 17th c. (with question mark suggesting the date uncertain). As far as I can see with all the stirrup forms I have found, the 'German' attributed ones are the only ones with this 'caged' feature.

While obviously the provenance of these, which we of course do not know, would certainly lend to better classification, if they are from Europe then we might presume the German origin.

If these might be from the U.S. as I suggested earlier due to the geometrics in the footplates resembling cattle brands, I would note that German presence here in the 1840s and 50s was quite prevalent, especially here in Texas. If that were the case, these could be 'western' equivilants of the earlier German forms.

Dear Jim
Many thanks for your answer ,I don't think that those stirrups have crossed the Atlantic it is my guess .
I have ound one pics from A Pair of Georgian Steel Cage Stirrups for Cavalry but the construction is really different and seems younger .
Do you have the possibility to post this picture from Stone's pages of examples (p.585, #10)

Best regards
Cerjak

[Jim McDougall]

Fernando, you are far too modest, actually your assessments and observations are of course always soundly placed, and I very much like your wording in noting the rural ambience on these stirrups. I agree that the Stone caption suggests the German provenance somewhat questionable, and offers little support for my speculation, but I thought I would add it anyway for the sake of outward thinking.
I still hold to the idea that these footplates are compellingly similar to ranch and cattle brands and logos.

Cerjak, outstanding comparison you have found with the Georgian pair of stirrups! and reflects that sort of neoclassicism indeed. As you have noted these seem in remarkable condition, but traditional forms extended use far beyond changes in the regular military units in the yeomanry regiments.
I would note here that my original suggestion of influence on 'western' trappings from German sources could equally apply to English instances.
England was a prolific supplier of goods in addition to the obvious cultural influences to America. It is interesting that even the majority of 'Bowie' knives in the 19th century were Sheffield produced, as were many guns and other items which were prevalent in the 'wild west'.

I just wanted to thank you guys for the very kind responses, especially in the personal recognition toward my observations. It is apparantly a waning courtesy in altogether too many instances on other venues, and as I admit to being a bit old fashioned, it is very much appreciated. I will see if I can get a scan of the Stone image pending some technical difficulties with scanning here.

All the very best,
Jim

[weapons 27]

Hello friends
you are wrong
both are French two civilians
the first is 19th so-called has the gardianne
the second called Stirrups a bench grinder is 18th


I have collectione bits, Stirrups, spurs for more than 20 years


believe that still me have a pair I you put a picture

[weapons 27]

Here is a photo a pair "French stirrups has the gardianne)




and a few pictures of parts that I kept

[fernando]

Great collection.
Thanks for sharing.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks weapons.
I never mind being wrong as long as I can learn from the matter in discussion and corrected data. Since this is a most esoteric topic it is a welcome addition to our threads here.
The main thing is that we all learn when information is shared.

[fernando]

Well Jim, in a way, stirrups for Rural Ranch Cowboys, only in the French version: Gardiens de taureaux de la Camargue


.

[weapons 27]

Originally Posted by fernando

Well Jim, in a way, stirrups for Rural Ranch Cowboys, only in the French version: Gardiens de taureaux de la Camargue


.

fernando
These Stirrups are different from the model shown

I will attach a picture in the day

[fernando]

I was not referring to a specific model/s, but to the general typology !

[Jim McDougall]

Nicely said Fernando! Your patience is amazing, and it is indeed helpful to remember that in discussions examples and analogies are often included which pertain to a type or form associated, and not necessarily 'exact' in comparison to those being shown. This convention perhaps escapes the perspective of some. This sometimes comes into play with items which have certain differences, and these are often termed 'variants'.

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by weapons 27

Here is a photo a pair "French stirrups has the gardianne)




and a few pictures of parts that I kept

ManyThanks weapons.

As I can see you have great collection

Cerjak

[Fernando K]

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13808


Please, some comentary about it

Fernando K

[weapons 27]

Originally Posted by Fernando K

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13808


Please, some comentary about it

Fernando K

regarding the origin of this stirrup, there is much to say. The majority comes from Europe, Poursin in Paris, which still displays in its showcase or the Belgian manufacturer Hersall, especially gun manufacturer. These manufacturers have sold in all of South America and even elsewhere: I saw at the Museum of the army in Athens or indicated by Greek general!Basically, they were used by elders who could pay them.See exhibit attached, extracted from Plateria Sudamericana, A Taullard, 1941.

Kind regards.

antoine

[fernando]

Very nice genuine example supported by a notable background.
The problem with these things is that you find out there modern reproductions so 'well aged' that they fool anyone's eye.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=stirrup

[weapons 27]

Originally Posted by fernando

Very nice genuine example supported by a notable background.
The problem with these things is that you find out there modern reproductions so 'well aged' that they fool anyone's eye.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=stirrup

fernando



I think yours is 19th

[laEspadaAncha]

Originally Posted by fernando

Very nice genuine example supported by a notable background.
The problem with these things is that you find out there modern reproductions so 'well aged' that they fool anyone's eye.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=stirrup

Hi 'Nando,

I wouldn't expect a whole lot of effort would be put into aging repro examples of these - at least to the degree where they would fool someone with exposure to legitimately old bronze items - as they simply don't command all that much in the collector market to begin with...

Cheers,

Chris