Keris - javanese blade in Kedah mounts? - Page 3

Jean · 23rd December 2012, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Probably it is a western collector thing that we want to know the exact origin of ivory, and that we not accept a term as "marine ivory".
Willem

Hello Willem,
Personally I fully accept the term "marine ivory" for kris hilts materials but for me it refers to spermwhale tooth, dugong tooth/tusk, and walrus tusk only.
I think that walrus ivory had been seldom used for making kris hilts and that because of the small size of the dugong tooth/tusk, it can only be used for relatively small and straight hilts (Jawa demam, putrasatu) but not for curved Bugis hilts for instance.
Best regards

rasdan · 23rd December 2012, 06:37 PM

G'day Alan,

I presume it probably started by a westerner recently. In my case, I stumbled upon the pic that Detlef had shown us earlier in this thread and I googled hippo ivory to see the possibility and I think it is possible that it is hippo since I didn't found anything else that matches the dotted criteria.

I did wondered how hippo ivory arrived here and the possibility that the people at that time "disguise" it as the cool sounding gigi ikan instead of the ugly hippo's tooth (assuming that people at that time know what is a hippo and have a common perception think that it is ugly and unclean) due to marketability and the cleanliness issue, but I never pursued the quest any further and I won't be able to defend my "theory" above.

A. G. Maisey · 23rd December 2012, 09:27 PM

Thank you gentlemen.

Willem, yes, I have read in this Forum many times that the dotted line proves that a material is hippo ivory. Many, many times.

What I would like to know is this:-

1) what is the source of this information? Hopefully it will be a credible source, possibly a book, or paper by some respected authority, or researcher, and with a verification from one or more other sources. I am looking for fact, not opinion.

2) when was this issue of "hippo ivory" relative to keris hilts first identified, and by whom?

Jean, I think you are naming "Webster" as the source for identification of hippo ivory by presence of a dotted line?

Who is Webster, how reliable is his work, when was it produced? Is there verification?

I have not raised the matter of where and when hippo ivory was first used, rather I have raised the matter of who first made the claim that certain keris hilts were made of hippo ivory, and when did this occur.

Rasdan, yes, I believe you're correct. I feel that it is absolutely a belief that is anchored in the western keris world, and a relatively new belief at that. This is the reason that I am attempting to fix a beginning point for this entry of the hippo ivory belief into keris collecting.

I'm not arguing against the possibility of hippo ivory, but what I would like to see is a qualifier when the possibility of hippo ivory arises, for example:-

"because of the dotted line (Webster) there is a high probability that this hilt is made of hippo ivory"

rather than:-

" this hilt is of hippo ivory"

David, this is not a comment on hippo ivory, but on quality of workmanship.

Thirty years ago in Surabaya I bought a large number of keris hilts from several different dealers. Some were wood, some were various kinds of ivory, some were in other materials. Some were old, some were recent. Most were Madurese and intricately carved.

The highest prices were paid for the finest workmanship. Material had very little impact on price. I paid more for some wooden hilts than I did for some ivory hilts. The determining factor for price was quality, not material.

In Jawa this situation prevailed through until the tree huggers swung into action and succeeded in getting the international trade in ivory banned. As predicted, the price of ivory immediately sky-rocketed and the illegal ivory trade along with mass extinctions of elephants took off like gang busters.

If you want make something more valuable, ban trade in that item.

Sajen · 23rd December 2012, 11:24 PM

Only want to add some reading stuff.

Here one site from cites: http://www.cites.org/eng/resources/p...vory-guide.pdf
And here one from U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service: http://www.lab.fws.gov/ivory_natural.php#hippo
And here one from the International Ivory Society: http://www.internationalivorysociety...y-bob-weisblut

And there will a booklet coming for ivory identification: http://dcgia.org/2012/10/14/ivory-id...op-bobby-mann/

asomotif · 23rd December 2012, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Willem, yes, I have read in this Forum many times that the dotted line proves that a material is hippo ivory. Many, many times.

What I would like to know is this:-

1) what is the source of this information? Hopefully it will be a credible source, possibly a book, or paper by some respected authority, or researcher, and with a verification from one or more other sources. I am looking for fact, not opinion.

2) when was this issue of "hippo ivory" relative to keris hilts first identified, and by whom?

Aaarghhh, Detlef beat me. I was busy typing when he added several links.

Never mind, I will just continue.

Dear Alan,

1) Cites has a very destinctive interest in ivory and ivory trade.
They describe the dotted line on their website in an identification guide which was published in 1991 by the World Wildlife Fund.
The researcha was done by : United States National Fish & Wildlife Forensics Laboratory, located in Ashland, Oregon.
I consider them a respected authority on the subject.
http://www.cites.org/eng/resources/p...vory-guide.pdf

2) Absolutely impossible to say who first identified hippo ivory in relation to a keris hilt.
Who first identified elephant ivory in relation to the same ?
Who first identified buffallo horn as a material used for keris hilts ?
I don't think anyone can say who first identified these materials.
seems irrelevant to me who identified it first.
Who identifies it now ?, and based on which criteria ?

For me, the first time I came accross this knowledge was probably 9 years ago when I saw a very attarctive rencong for sale at "Aalderink Oriental Art" a gallery in Amsterdam, established in 1929. It is a respected gallery of good reputation.
The owner showed me the rencong which had a massive ivory hilt. He showed me the dotted line and explained that this indicated hippo ivory.
Then from a drawer he took a large hippo tusk that was partly in its original shape and partly grounded to a smooth surface. and there again was this distinctive dotted line.
Although I can be stubborn and headstrong, (according to my wife, my mother, my father and my sister, all respected autorities on the subject

)
I just had no reason to question this gallery owners authority on the subject and gladly accepted this little learning opportunity.

In the end, the material is not very important, it is the beauty of the item that counts. but in cases where I can identify the material I see no reason why I should avoid it. And it makes some nice conversation now and then.

Best regards,
Willem

Rick · 24th December 2012, 02:54 AM

I am constantly amazed at how far afield we get sometimes .

Jean · 24th December 2012, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Jean, I think you are naming "Webster" as the source for identification of hippo ivory by presence of a dotted line?

Who is Webster, how reliable is his work, when was it produced? Is there verification?

Hello Alan,
The results from Webster (Robert) are referenced in the article from Richard V. Dietrich (Central Michigan University) which I listed in post #48.
I have no access to Webster's paper but it is included in the Gems & Gemolology Subject Index compiled by R.V. Dietrich (CMU) and A.A. Levinson (University of Calgary) as follows:
"Ivory distinguished from bone, Winter 1948-49, Volume VI, pages 105-110" (if I understand it correctly).
Actually the results from Webster as referenced by R.V. Dietrich concern the measurement of the specific gravity and hardness of hippo ivory as compared to other types of ivory and bone.
His work is not referenced in the CITES article bibliography probably because it is too old...
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 25th December 2012, 08:47 AM

Thank you gentlemen. What you have jointly provided is exactly the sort of information I was seeking.

I cannot open the CITES link, but will accept that it endorses what you are all telling me.

In any case, my initial post has had the effect I had hoped for, and I thank you all for your participation in this interesting discussion.

Happy Christmas!!!

T. Koch · 31st December 2012, 09:44 PM

Guys, before saying this, I would like to state that in the company of most of you gentlemen, I know next to nothing about keris. I'm an intellectual dwarf on the matter. My knowledge is so small that it gathers at the feet of your knowledge, together with other small knowledges, just to bow down in the dust and WORSHIP! I realize that a lot of you have been collecting for half a lifetime – more in some instances – and that you possess a quality of knowledge that only comes with submersion in a topic for years on end. I have nothing but the utmost respect for all of you!

When it comes to ivory, it is likewise important to me to state that my knowledge on the subject doesn't come from arms collecting, but as a consequence of my job. As I have said before, I put bread on our table as a CITES Management Authority for our Nature Agency under The Danish Environmental Ministry and am now going on my 6th year. In other words: It's part of my daily work to look at random peoples' old stuff, make a source species ID and tell the owners if they need to apply for a CITES-permit/certificate before selling the item in question. I also work borders with our customs agency, ID'ing items coming in through the mail as well as carried by travellers in the airport.

By this time, I would estimate the amount of items from CITES-contained species that have passed through my hands, to number in the low thousands -conservatively set. When giving my opinion on a source species, the requirements of my position and the possible legal gravity that my judgement potentially carries, has cultivated in me a strong sense of carefulness: I might need, to later stand up in court and reiterate my opinion on the source of a given material in front of a judge. For that reason, I will ever only state that a material is from a certain species, if I with every fibre of my being consider it so. Any doubt at all, and I let it go.

A perspective which becomes apparent with sufficient time spent in this field, is that the guidelines for identification of ivories are exactly that: Guidelines! The more pieces you see, the more you become aware of the existence of anomalies and how completely far and strangely removed from the norm these often are. When you not only look at weapon hilts, but everything, from raw tusks and teeth, in longitudinal- and transsection, to tiny little jewelry and scrap ivory, it becomes very clear: A strong ID is not as easy as ticking of a certain box and then you have your species. This was the point of my first post:

To encourage other collectors to likewise be cautious and base their assessments on careful consideration of the whole piece presented, rather than quickly looking for a single character fit.

Regarding the piece at hand, my opinion is still, from the photographic material here presented, that the source might as well be some other kind of ivory than hippo. If I failed to make it clear in my first post, please let me explain here, that I mentioned walrus not because I found it a likely source in this case. I mentioned having seen similar “dots in a row” in walrus ivory (likewise with elephant) – none of which have an interstitial zone as part of their physiological structure. I mentioned this, merely to support my point that basing a species ID on a single character in a given piece of ivory, is a fallacy.

My thoughts on topic of hippo ivory in the context at hand, are much in alignment with Allan Maisley's. Like Allan, I would also very much like to see written proof that hippo ivory was carved and used in this way in South East Asia. Please note, that I don't say that I do not believe it, simply that I would like to see the source. In the face of new evidence, I am always up for changing my opinion!

Secondly, and for me more importantly, I would like a source to “dots in a row” being a sure-shot character for the ID of hippo ivory. Willem, my Borneo-guru, you belong right up there in the group of gentlemen that I first mentioned, but I humbly believe you to be wrong on this matter. I know Espinosa & Mann, very – very - well, but nowhere do I remember them making a reference to these “dots in a row”.

I would like to check it out now myself, but hey, it's New Years and I have an impatient girlfriend, actually waiting around for me this time.. Therefore, in the words of some Roman: Nunc est bibendum!

Happy New Years guys, - Thor

Jean · 1st January 2013, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T. Koch

When it comes to ivory, it is likewise important to me to state that my knowledge on the subject doesn't come from arms collecting, but as a consequence of my job. As I have said before, I put bread on our table as a CITES Management Authority for our Nature Agency under The Danish Environmental Ministry and am now going on my 6th year. In other words: It's part of my daily work to look at random peoples' old stuff, make a source species ID and tell the owners if they need to apply for a CITES-permit/certificate before selling the item in question. I also work borders with our customs agency, ID'ing items coming in through the mail as well as carried by travellers in the airport.
My thoughts on topic of hippo ivory in the context at hand, are much in alignment with Allan Maisley's. Like Allan, I would also very much like to see written proof that hippo ivory was carved and used in this way in South East Asia. Please note, that I don't say that I do not believe it, simply that I would like to see the source. In the face of new evidence, I am always up for changing my opinion!
Secondly, and for me more importantly, I would like a source to “dots in a row” being a sure-shot character for the ID of hippo ivory.

Hello Thor,
We are very lucky to have an ivory expert among us!

Personally I am convinced by your arguments since you are the specialist and admit that I have been too quick to accept the presence of the dotted line along with other qualitative or visual indicators (feeling of higher density & hardness, colour, structure) as a proven indicator that a piece is made from hippo ivory. I agree that this evidence was not sufficiently documented.
If my question is not too difficult, could you please tell us how do you positively identify carved hippo ivory pieces subject to your inspection?
And a more detailed one: did you ever notice a dotted line in some pieces identified as spermwhale ivory?
If I have the opportunity to meet you I will be glad to show you my pieces in question provided that your Customs Authorities do not seize them

Thank you and happy New Year!
Jean

Sajen · 2nd January 2013, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T. Koch

I mentioned having seen similar “dots in a row” in walrus ivory (likewise with elephant) – none of which have an interstitial zone as part of their physiological structure.

Hello Thor,

please can you provide pictures of clearly determined walrus and elephant ivory with this "dots in a row"?

Sajen · 2nd January 2013, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T. Koch

Secondly, and for me more importantly, I would like a source to “dots in a row” being a sure-shot character for the ID of hippo ivory.

Hello Thor,

the provided links I and Willem have posted don't tell something about "dots in a row" but confirm this with other words. very clear in this link: http://www.internationalivorysociety...y-bob-weisblut like follow: "There is a nerve root that looks like a "dash" or curved line properly referred to as a "TIZ". "

And sometimes a picture can tell much more as written words. The picture is taken from here: http://www.beyars.com/de_elfenbein-f...pferdzahn.html Unfortunately all written in german language.

Sajen · 2nd January 2013, 03:53 PM

And here for comparison the handle from one of my badik handles. Sorry for be a pain in this matter but I am very very positive about to assign hippo ivory by this "dots in a row".

Best regards,

Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 3rd January 2013, 06:10 AM

Thor, I thank you most sincerely for your further post.

It seems that your professional background is not all that dissimilar from my own, not that I work in border control ivory identification nor for a CITES agency, but rather that when I give a professional opinion I must be able to substantiate that opinion beyond the point of dispute.

I have not yet been able to open the CITES link that was provided, but it would seem from what you say that the material in this link is of the nature of guidelines, rather definitive statements.

I much appreciate both your input to this thread, and the professionalism of that input. Thank you very much. I do hope you stay involved in our shared interest.

23rd December 2012, 11:24 PM	#64
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,794	Only want to add some reading stuff. Here one site from cites: http://www.cites.org/eng/resources/p...vory-guide.pdf And here one from U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service: http://www.lab.fws.gov/ivory_natural.php#hippo And here one from the International Ivory Society: http://www.internationalivorysociety...y-bob-weisblut And there will a booklet coming for ivory identification: http://dcgia.org/2012/10/14/ivory-id...op-bobby-mann/ Last edited by Sajen; 23rd December 2012 at 11:36 PM.

2nd January 2013, 03:53 PM	#73
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,794	And here for comparison the handle from one of my badik handles. Sorry for be a pain in this matter but I am very very positive about to assign hippo ivory by this "dots in a row". Best regards, Detlef Attached Images

23rd December 2012, 06:37 PM	#62
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	G'day Alan, I presume it probably started by a westerner recently. In my case, I stumbled upon the pic that Detlef had shown us earlier in this thread and I googled hippo ivory to see the possibility and I think it is possible that it is hippo since I didn't found anything else that matches the dotted criteria. I did wondered how hippo ivory arrived here and the possibility that the people at that time "disguise" it as the cool sounding gigi ikan instead of the ugly hippo's tooth (assuming that people at that time know what is a hippo and have a common perception think that it is ugly and unclean) due to marketability and the cleanliness issue, but I never pursued the quest any further and I won't be able to defend my "theory" above.

23rd December 2012, 09:27 PM	#63
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Thank you gentlemen. Willem, yes, I have read in this Forum many times that the dotted line proves that a material is hippo ivory. Many, many times. What I would like to know is this:- 1) what is the source of this information? Hopefully it will be a credible source, possibly a book, or paper by some respected authority, or researcher, and with a verification from one or more other sources. I am looking for fact, not opinion. 2) when was this issue of "hippo ivory" relative to keris hilts first identified, and by whom? Jean, I think you are naming "Webster" as the source for identification of hippo ivory by presence of a dotted line? Who is Webster, how reliable is his work, when was it produced? Is there verification? I have not raised the matter of where and when hippo ivory was first used, rather I have raised the matter of who first made the claim that certain keris hilts were made of hippo ivory, and when did this occur. Rasdan, yes, I believe you're correct. I feel that it is absolutely a belief that is anchored in the western keris world, and a relatively new belief at that. This is the reason that I am attempting to fix a beginning point for this entry of the hippo ivory belief into keris collecting. I'm not arguing against the possibility of hippo ivory, but what I would like to see is a qualifier when the possibility of hippo ivory arises, for example:- "because of the dotted line (Webster) there is a high probability that this hilt is made of hippo ivory" rather than:- " this hilt is of hippo ivory" David, this is not a comment on hippo ivory, but on quality of workmanship. Thirty years ago in Surabaya I bought a large number of keris hilts from several different dealers. Some were wood, some were various kinds of ivory, some were in other materials. Some were old, some were recent. Most were Madurese and intricately carved. The highest prices were paid for the finest workmanship. Material had very little impact on price. I paid more for some wooden hilts than I did for some ivory hilts. The determining factor for price was quality, not material. In Jawa this situation prevailed through until the tree huggers swung into action and succeeded in getting the international trade in ivory banned. As predicted, the price of ivory immediately sky-rocketed and the illegal ivory trade along with mass extinctions of elephants took off like gang busters. If you want make something more valuable, ban trade in that item.

24th December 2012, 02:54 AM	#66
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I am constantly amazed at how far afield we get sometimes .

25th December 2012, 08:47 AM	#68
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Thank you gentlemen. What you have jointly provided is exactly the sort of information I was seeking. I cannot open the CITES link, but will accept that it endorses what you are all telling me. In any case, my initial post has had the effect I had hoped for, and I thank you all for your participation in this interesting discussion. Happy Christmas!!!

31st December 2012, 09:44 PM	#69
T. Koch Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Mother North Posts: 189	Guys, before saying this, I would like to state that in the company of most of you gentlemen, I know next to nothing about keris. I'm an intellectual dwarf on the matter. My knowledge is so small that it gathers at the feet of your knowledge, together with other small knowledges, just to bow down in the dust and WORSHIP! I realize that a lot of you have been collecting for half a lifetime – more in some instances – and that you possess a quality of knowledge that only comes with submersion in a topic for years on end. I have nothing but the utmost respect for all of you! When it comes to ivory, it is likewise important to me to state that my knowledge on the subject doesn't come from arms collecting, but as a consequence of my job. As I have said before, I put bread on our table as a CITES Management Authority for our Nature Agency under The Danish Environmental Ministry and am now going on my 6th year. In other words: It's part of my daily work to look at random peoples' old stuff, make a source species ID and tell the owners if they need to apply for a CITES-permit/certificate before selling the item in question. I also work borders with our customs agency, ID'ing items coming in through the mail as well as carried by travellers in the airport. By this time, I would estimate the amount of items from CITES-contained species that have passed through my hands, to number in the low thousands -conservatively set. When giving my opinion on a source species, the requirements of my position and the possible legal gravity that my judgement potentially carries, has cultivated in me a strong sense of carefulness: I might need, to later stand up in court and reiterate my opinion on the source of a given material in front of a judge. For that reason, I will ever only state that a material is from a certain species, if I with every fibre of my being consider it so. Any doubt at all, and I let it go. A perspective which becomes apparent with sufficient time spent in this field, is that the guidelines for identification of ivories are exactly that: Guidelines! The more pieces you see, the more you become aware of the existence of anomalies and how completely far and strangely removed from the norm these often are. When you not only look at weapon hilts, but everything, from raw tusks and teeth, in longitudinal- and transsection, to tiny little jewelry and scrap ivory, it becomes very clear: A strong ID is not as easy as ticking of a certain box and then you have your species. This was the point of my first post: To encourage other collectors to likewise be cautious and base their assessments on careful consideration of the whole piece presented, rather than quickly looking for a single character fit. Regarding the piece at hand, my opinion is still, from the photographic material here presented, that the source might as well be some other kind of ivory than hippo. If I failed to make it clear in my first post, please let me explain here, that I mentioned walrus not because I found it a likely source in this case. I mentioned having seen similar “dots in a row” in walrus ivory (likewise with elephant) – none of which have an interstitial zone as part of their physiological structure. I mentioned this, merely to support my point that basing a species ID on a single character in a given piece of ivory, is a fallacy. My thoughts on topic of hippo ivory in the context at hand, are much in alignment with Allan Maisley's. Like Allan, I would also very much like to see written proof that hippo ivory was carved and used in this way in South East Asia. Please note, that I don't say that I do not believe it, simply that I would like to see the source. In the face of new evidence, I am always up for changing my opinion! Secondly, and for me more importantly, I would like a source to “dots in a row” being a sure-shot character for the ID of hippo ivory. Willem, my Borneo-guru, you belong right up there in the group of gentlemen that I first mentioned, but I humbly believe you to be wrong on this matter. I know Espinosa & Mann, very – very - well, but nowhere do I remember them making a reference to these “dots in a row”. I would like to check it out now myself, but hey, it's New Years and I have an impatient girlfriend, actually waiting around for me this time.. Therefore, in the words of some Roman: Nunc est bibendum! Happy New Years guys, - Thor

3rd January 2013, 06:10 AM	#74
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Thor, I thank you most sincerely for your further post. It seems that your professional background is not all that dissimilar from my own, not that I work in border control ivory identification nor for a CITES agency, but rather that when I give a professional opinion I must be able to substantiate that opinion beyond the point of dispute. I have not yet been able to open the CITES link that was provided, but it would seem from what you say that the material in this link is of the nature of guidelines, rather definitive statements. I much appreciate both your input to this thread, and the professionalism of that input. Thank you very much. I do hope you stay involved in our shared interest.