African Sword for ID and comment

Richard G · 12th December 2012, 05:23 PM

I'm in agreement with Iain, the crocodile\lizard motif seems very common on the artifacts of tribes living in the regions of the the great West African rivers (and probably elsewhere ) and I don't think is diagnostic of a Nilotic origin.
This sword still has a West rather than North or East African look to me, but I am very willing to be proved wrong.
Regards
Richard

Jim McDougall · 12th December 2012, 07:54 PM

Its great to see good discussion develop despite distractions, and some excellent observations have been made by Iain. It is quite true that a weapon such as this does seem quite of of context among the typical Nilotic forms, particularly of course the kaskara. It is further concerning when looking at the zoomorphic motif which I have noted as a crocodile, while clearly there are similar images much more stylized seen from motif from regions to the west such as the scabbard shown.
The pierced image on the sword Brian has posted seems to me much more like a crocodile, note the head shape, the tail and especially the cross hatch design on the back, presumably scales. The waran lizard, whose hides are also used, seems far less totemic than the crocodile, who has a long history of being a much feared and revered icon into ancient times in these regions.

While my reference to this type sword being from Dongola came from recollection from an important group of Sudanese arms on tour in 2002, with one of these with daggers and kaskara etc, I have now found one of the original references per Iains request.
In the 1896 revision of Lord Egertons "Indian and Oriental Arms and Armour" (Dover Press, 2002), #197, which is virtually identical to this example of Brians, and described as an Arab sword made in Dongola and used in the Sudan. It is described in the text on page 157 as having a hilt of ebony and ivory with pommel in crescent shape, the image of a crocodile in the blade. The geometrics on the blade vary from Brians, but the crocodile shape is the same as seen on other examples.
This is an interesting revision of Egertons first issue of this reference from 1880 on mostly Indian arms, now including the Sudan, clearly after the campaigns recently taking place, and precluding Omdurman in 1898.

These swords are seen in line drawing form in "Weapons: The Diagram Group", Ed. David Harding, p.36, #9, described as Arab sword from Dongola with crocodile in blade. In reviewing the bibliography there is no mention of Egerton though the list seems quite comprehensive and the only other book on African arms listed was "African Weapons" by Werner & Zirngible (1978). Going through that book there was no evidence of these type swords nor Hausa weapons with T handle hilt, nor crocodile motif, and since the description seems so close to Egertons I must presume Egerton is the source for the Diagram Group reference.

The design and motif is admittedly similar in gestalt to weapons across the entirety of the Sudan, which actually traverses the Sahara to the reaches of the forest kingdoms of the west and across the Sahelian belt. The trade routes which cross diffused materials and culture certainly played a key role in these kinds of anomalies, with the Hausa being prominant merchant traders becoming a prevalent dynamic among other tribes also participating.

Therefore, the classification of this sword as I have suggested is based somewhat objectively on having seen an example in Nilotic context and the references I have provided which are contemporary to the Sudanic campaigns and presumably by a considerably well informed and venerable author. The subjective opinions presented here are however well placed and reflect the broad scope of trade and diffusion in the regions we are studying...which is after all, exactly why we are here!!

Thank you guys,

Jim

Iain · 13th December 2012, 10:16 AM

Hi Jim and Richard,

Agree with the Dongola attribution after seeing the references, certainly no reason to suspect something else.

The Hausa do have a somewhat T hilted form, but is quite different in construction and the pommel is much fatter. Good example from David:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4343

As always, fantastic info from Jim and lots to read up on.

Jim McDougall · 13th December 2012, 05:13 PM

Thank you so much Iain, its great to have interactive discussion as here where we can exchange information at hand, observations and ideas. Its really not at all about who's right or wrong as sometimes seems suggested in threads, but assessing the most plausible identifications based on the evaluated evidence and examples.
While having some reasonably sound perspective established on this interesting sword form as being from Dongola, I am every much with you on still seeking more evidence and other corroboration, so as always...case profoundly not entirely closed.....just pending.

All the best,
Jim

12th December 2012, 07:54 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Its great to see good discussion develop despite distractions, and some excellent observations have been made by Iain. It is quite true that a weapon such as this does seem quite of of context among the typical Nilotic forms, particularly of course the kaskara. It is further concerning when looking at the zoomorphic motif which I have noted as a crocodile, while clearly there are similar images much more stylized seen from motif from regions to the west such as the scabbard shown. The pierced image on the sword Brian has posted seems to me much more like a crocodile, note the head shape, the tail and especially the cross hatch design on the back, presumably scales. The waran lizard, whose hides are also used, seems far less totemic than the crocodile, who has a long history of being a much feared and revered icon into ancient times in these regions. While my reference to this type sword being from Dongola came from recollection from an important group of Sudanese arms on tour in 2002, with one of these with daggers and kaskara etc, I have now found one of the original references per Iains request. In the 1896 revision of Lord Egertons "Indian and Oriental Arms and Armour" (Dover Press, 2002), #197, which is virtually identical to this example of Brians, and described as an Arab sword made in Dongola and used in the Sudan. It is described in the text on page 157 as having a hilt of ebony and ivory with pommel in crescent shape, the image of a crocodile in the blade. The geometrics on the blade vary from Brians, but the crocodile shape is the same as seen on other examples. This is an interesting revision of Egertons first issue of this reference from 1880 on mostly Indian arms, now including the Sudan, clearly after the campaigns recently taking place, and precluding Omdurman in 1898. These swords are seen in line drawing form in "Weapons: The Diagram Group", Ed. David Harding, p.36, #9, described as Arab sword from Dongola with crocodile in blade. In reviewing the bibliography there is no mention of Egerton though the list seems quite comprehensive and the only other book on African arms listed was "African Weapons" by Werner & Zirngible (1978). Going through that book there was no evidence of these type swords nor Hausa weapons with T handle hilt, nor crocodile motif, and since the description seems so close to Egertons I must presume Egerton is the source for the Diagram Group reference. The design and motif is admittedly similar in gestalt to weapons across the entirety of the Sudan, which actually traverses the Sahara to the reaches of the forest kingdoms of the west and across the Sahelian belt. The trade routes which cross diffused materials and culture certainly played a key role in these kinds of anomalies, with the Hausa being prominant merchant traders becoming a prevalent dynamic among other tribes also participating. Therefore, the classification of this sword as I have suggested is based somewhat objectively on having seen an example in Nilotic context and the references I have provided which are contemporary to the Sudanic campaigns and presumably by a considerably well informed and venerable author. The subjective opinions presented here are however well placed and reflect the broad scope of trade and diffusion in the regions we are studying...which is after all, exactly why we are here!! Thank you guys, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 13th December 2012 at 05:03 PM.

12th December 2012, 05:23 PM	#1
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 405	I'm in agreement with Iain, the crocodile\lizard motif seems very common on the artifacts of tribes living in the regions of the the great West African rivers (and probably elsewhere ) and I don't think is diagnostic of a Nilotic origin. This sword still has a West rather than North or East African look to me, but I am very willing to be proved wrong. Regards Richard

13th December 2012, 10:16 AM	#3
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Hi Jim and Richard, Agree with the Dongola attribution after seeing the references, certainly no reason to suspect something else. The Hausa do have a somewhat T hilted form, but is quite different in construction and the pommel is much fatter. Good example from David: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4343 As always, fantastic info from Jim and lots to read up on.

13th December 2012, 05:13 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Thank you so much Iain, its great to have interactive discussion as here where we can exchange information at hand, observations and ideas. Its really not at all about who's right or wrong as sometimes seems suggested in threads, but assessing the most plausible identifications based on the evaluated evidence and examples. While having some reasonably sound perspective established on this interesting sword form as being from Dongola, I am every much with you on still seeking more evidence and other corroboration, so as always...case profoundly not entirely closed.....just pending. All the best, Jim