Jambiya-kindjal combination?

erlikhan · 18th September 2005, 02:14 AM

may i learn your comments on this item? is the hilt normal for a caucassian kindjal, or the blade normal for jambiyas? the scabbard mounting and the artificial damascus design in the fullers is clearly Caucassian, not? When the broad blade shape is considered, can this be a very early item?
regards

Ahriman · 18th September 2005, 02:23 PM

I'm not an expert, but why would be a broad blade be a sign of earliness? I mean, it doesn't seem like as if it'd be compensating for weaker material. And as eastern armour was never as widespread or used everyday, or covering-all, a more cut-oriented swordplay (even as it's not a sword) could remain in fashion for ages. I may be terribly wrong on this, though, as I don't really know eastern fighting methods, and my sources, as I mentioned it before, are quite limited.

Why would it be a jambiya? I was told that "jambiyas are curved, tapering blades for slicing and for curved thursts, or for korambit-like usage". And this blade is surely a fierce cutter with inferior thursting capability. Was my source incorrect, again?

Sorry as my post contained more questions than answers, but I'm studiing this area (eastern weaponry) for less than half of a year.

erlikhan · 18th September 2005, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ahriman

I'm not an expert, but why would be a broad blade be a sign of earliness? I mean, it doesn't seem like as if it'd be compensating for weaker material. And as eastern armour was never as widespread or used everyday, or covering-all, a more cut-oriented swordplay (even as it's not a sword) could remain in fashion for ages. I may be terribly wrong on this, though, as I don't really know eastern fighting methods, and my sources, as I mentioned it before, are quite limited.

Why would it be a jambiya? I was told that "jambiyas are curved, tapering blades for slicing and for curved thursts, or for korambit-like usage". And this blade is surely a fierce cutter with inferior thursting capability. Was my source incorrect, again?

Sorry as my post contained more questions than answers, but I'm studiing this area (eastern weaponry) for less than half of a year.

Ahriman hi. I meant just the hilt as if it was reminding the jambiyas of Northern Iraqi ones. Not the curved blade of jambiyas of course. I have not seen a hilt like this on Caucassian kindjals, but many on jambiyas. What I personally guess, it can be a later hilt restoration with an unrelated spare part, but it can be a known characteristic type too. I hope anybody can explain it. The scabbard mounting is 19th c. Caucassian - as far as I know-. But those blades are always with longer fullers, pointed tips with blades getting thinner through the tip, unlike this one the blade of which continues broad more compared to usual.

Again, I expect more comments on this piece.

Rivkin · 18th September 2005, 05:43 PM

"Etched damascene" or "etched leaf pattern" in fullers is something extremely common for post 1850 kindjals and quite rare for older examples. I'm not an expert, but if my memory does not betray me, squarish hilt for example can be characteristic for certain cossack patterns, but this one does not strike me as a cossack thing. Fullers are typically turkish (lacking only star and crescent to be 100% turkish). Scabbard is very simplistic and uncharacteristic for major caucasian producers.

It's indeed a rare kindjal type, but I've seen blades like this one. My diagnosis would be that it's something southern - turkish or even more southernish, with slight possibility that's it some rare Dagestan pattern made for Cossacks (the blade's shape is also sometwhat characteristic for cossack patterns).

I hope to be corrected by a real expert.

ham · 18th September 2005, 08:27 PM

Gentlemen,

Rivkin is on the right track, these kamas were produced in Trabzon during the first half of the 19th century. Latter 19th c. photos show that they were worn by Ottomans crosswise through the silahlik or girdle (perpendicular to the waist) rather like a yataghan. They are also occasionally found in W. Georgia but the scabbards were generally remounted in nielloed silver there, though the one-piece horn grips were usually left unembellished.

Sincerely,

Ham

erlikhan · 18th September 2005, 11:07 PM

Ham and Rivkin thank you thank you very much. I am in Turkey but the 1st time I see this strange thing. Trabzon? Would never be able to guess it. Seems so unrelated to other arm kinds originating from there. Very interesting info for me.

Rivkin · 19th September 2005, 12:57 AM

Thank you very much Ham ! Good to know it's from Trabzon.

ariel · 19th September 2005, 01:35 AM

Look at the post by Eftihis:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=black
The guy in the middle wears a large Qama with a Jambiya-type handle but... the pommel seems to look like an Albanian one ( you know, the diagonal incisions).
Qamas were popular in many cultures:Tirri's book has one from the Arabian Peninsula and I have one from Sudan. The distinguishing characteristic is the handle or other decoration, not the blade: Persians sold trade blades all over.
I am more inclined to think that the steel cover of the scabbard points more toward Iraq/Persia.
Ham, do you have any hard evidence of Trabzon provenance?

ham · 19th September 2005, 03:47 PM

The most immediate and available piece of hard evidence is the image you posted, Ariel. It is clearly labeled and dated TRABZON 1870.

Ham

18th September 2005, 02:14 AM	#1
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Jambiya-kindjal combination? may i learn your comments on this item? is the hilt normal for a caucassian kindjal, or the blade normal for jambiyas? the scabbard mounting and the artificial damascus design in the fullers is clearly Caucassian, not? When the broad blade shape is considered, can this be a very early item? regards Attached Images

18th September 2005, 08:27 PM	#5
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Gentlemen, Rivkin is on the right track, these kamas were produced in Trabzon during the first half of the 19th century. Latter 19th c. photos show that they were worn by Ottomans crosswise through the silahlik or girdle (perpendicular to the waist) rather like a yataghan. They are also occasionally found in W. Georgia but the scabbards were generally remounted in nielloed silver there, though the one-piece horn grips were usually left unembellished. Sincerely, Ham Last edited by ham; 19th September 2005 at 03:45 PM.

18th September 2005, 02:23 PM	#2
Ahriman Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Hungary Posts: 72	I'm not an expert, but why would be a broad blade be a sign of earliness? I mean, it doesn't seem like as if it'd be compensating for weaker material. And as eastern armour was never as widespread or used everyday, or covering-all, a more cut-oriented swordplay (even as it's not a sword) could remain in fashion for ages. I may be terribly wrong on this, though, as I don't really know eastern fighting methods, and my sources, as I mentioned it before, are quite limited. Why would it be a jambiya? I was told that "jambiyas are curved, tapering blades for slicing and for curved thursts, or for korambit-like usage". And this blade is surely a fierce cutter with inferior thursting capability. Was my source incorrect, again? Sorry as my post contained more questions than answers, but I'm studiing this area (eastern weaponry) for less than half of a year.

18th September 2005, 05:43 PM	#4
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	"Etched damascene" or "etched leaf pattern" in fullers is something extremely common for post 1850 kindjals and quite rare for older examples. I'm not an expert, but if my memory does not betray me, squarish hilt for example can be characteristic for certain cossack patterns, but this one does not strike me as a cossack thing. Fullers are typically turkish (lacking only star and crescent to be 100% turkish). Scabbard is very simplistic and uncharacteristic for major caucasian producers. It's indeed a rare kindjal type, but I've seen blades like this one. My diagnosis would be that it's something southern - turkish or even more southernish, with slight possibility that's it some rare Dagestan pattern made for Cossacks (the blade's shape is also sometwhat characteristic for cossack patterns). I hope to be corrected by a real expert.

18th September 2005, 11:07 PM	#6
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Ham and Rivkin thank you thank you very much. I am in Turkey but the 1st time I see this strange thing. Trabzon? Would never be able to guess it. Seems so unrelated to other arm kinds originating from there. Very interesting info for me.

19th September 2005, 12:57 AM	#7
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Thank you very much Ham ! Good to know it's from Trabzon.

19th September 2005, 01:35 AM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Look at the post by Eftihis: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=black The guy in the middle wears a large Qama with a Jambiya-type handle but... the pommel seems to look like an Albanian one ( you know, the diagonal incisions). Qamas were popular in many cultures:Tirri's book has one from the Arabian Peninsula and I have one from Sudan. The distinguishing characteristic is the handle or other decoration, not the blade: Persians sold trade blades all over. I am more inclined to think that the steel cover of the scabbard points more toward Iraq/Persia. Ham, do you have any hard evidence of Trabzon provenance?

19th September 2005, 03:47 PM	#9
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	The most immediate and available piece of hard evidence is the image you posted, Ariel. It is clearly labeled and dated TRABZON 1870. Ham