Help wanted Identification of Katars - Page 2

B.I · 15th September 2005, 12:36 AM

the dotted inscriptions are thought to be inventory or shelf marks. this is a loose description, but it has been debated and no better 'guess' has been offered. they are from the bikaner armoury, as others have stated and thought to have been put onto the contents of the armoury at some point in the 19thC.
there is an account from the armourer of bikaner in 1900, discussing the potential origins of some of the pieces and the placement of there marks could have hailed from this time (as it was hinted that this armourer had gone through the collection. either way, the 19thC date comes from the fact that certain 19thC pieces hold the same type of marking, as well has 16thC pieces in the same armoury. the marks were put onto all pieces, whether made in the region or captured at some point in the armouries history. some pieces (like some of your daggers) held more than one set of marks, and some had up to 4. again, this has fed the 'shelf mark' theory, in that when moved, an additional set of marks were put on. personally, i feel this is little thin, but i am happy to believe they are inventory marks of some kind. they cannot be armourers marks (which has been agreed, no matter what else is debated) as these marks were put alongside armourers marks, and were normally poorly done. also, they were put onto pieces that were many hundreds of miles apart in origin, and upto 400 years apart in date.
the marks are normally numbers, and many (maybe even a majority) were preceded with a 'symbol' that was neither a number nor a letter. i have attached a compliation of this symbol found in the pieces on this particular post.
what this symbol is i dont know, but hope to find out at some point in my lifetime. i have been pursuing it for a number of years and have only heard specualtion. the armoury itself (now a series of museums) cant offer any more information. an interesting point is that there did exist a written inventory, which was seen a number fo years ago. this ledger may hold clues, but i'm afraid it will never be seen again, being condemning evidence against the hoard of pieces going missing some 10 years ago (and ultimately ending up in your brothers collection).

the numbers itself could be a number of different languages, but the presence of other dotted inscriptions (other than numbers and this symbol) show the language to be a strange for of devanagri, although different enough to be a possible language in itself.
i have had aome of these longer inscription read, but with no satifactory results.
the problem is that devenagri is a written language only, and whatever form of it this is, seems to have been forgotten many years ago.

inscriptions aside, look again to the very large katar your brother has. the grip bars seem a little mishapen.
this is because they could possibly have been chisselled elephant heads (one on either side - 4 in total) which was a feature shown in some other pieces from the same armoury. yours are very worn, as are the facets of the grip bars but i'm sure this was the original feature.

Andrew · 15th September 2005, 04:07 AM

Excellent post, Brian. Thank you.

Rob, a great wealth of information resides in this forum and its archives. The membership here has a broad base of experience from collecting to research.

However, the study of ethnographic weaponry is often a rather esoteric and exotic pursuit. Poor documentation, extravagent and incredible provenance, colonialistic perspective and language barriers all contribute to the unanswered questions. It was this very lack of reliable information that first attracted me to ethnographic weapons and continues to keep me engaged and intellectually stimulated. While such things as militaria and nihonto have always fascinated me, there are few "mysteries" left to explore in those areas.

These forums are often a good starting place for research and investigation, as well as a place to share knowlege, experience and speculation. I once described the process as "edged weapon free-association" (or something similar). I truly hope you'll stick around and share more with us, despite your obvious disappointment. You may yet find the answers to your questions, or even to questions you've not yet thought of.

Best,
Andrew

geneacom · 15th September 2005, 04:59 PM

Ridk, Spiral, B.I. and Andrew, thank you very much for your support!
Your very interesting explanations are helping me to better understand the problems.
Since I am completely new and uneducated to this matter, I have learned a lot since I joined this forum.
You reply is giving me the necessary push to go on.
I will start publishing new pictures tonight.

Jens Nordlunde · 15th September 2005, 05:34 PM

Hi Rob,

Thanks for showing the katars, but as you can see from the different mails, last from Brian’s excellent answer; it is very difficult, if not impossible, at the moment, to come up with something specific about the translation. What we can conclude is, that the katars shown, most likely, have been at the Bikaner armoury at one point or another, but not necessarily were ‘born’ there. If you have read a few books on the Indian history, you will know, that wars were going on all the time, from east to west, and from north to south. Big armies moving around the country all the time, weapons getting mixed, and remixed before they ended in an armoury somewhere, and maybe years later ending up in another armoury after a lost battle.

The thing of interest will therefore be, does the katar fit into the area where the armoury is, or is it likely to be from another area?

As your brother has been collecting for twenty years, I guess that he is likely to have some answers to this.

If you post any more pictures, please help us to a better understanding, by keeping the pictures of the whole weapon and the details together. I have no doubt that you and your brother have no problem seeing the pictures, but it will make it easier for the rest of us who don’t know the weapons.

Jens

geneacom · 16th September 2005, 01:47 AM

Every day I learn more and more, thanks for all your support and kind help.

Here is the last katar for now.

I have to make new photos next week.
Actually, I started to make pictures only from the 3 katars with text on it plus 2 katars which I like very much (the small one with the ivory knobs and the largest one I could find in my brothers collection).

Enjoy and I'll be back ...

geneacom · 16th September 2005, 02:00 AM

I found a table with the figures 0-9 in different languages.
Maybe this will help? It is an Acrobat PDF-file.

PUFF · 5th July 2006, 11:31 AM

As far as I know, hindu-arabic scripts could be associated with period and place. You might be able to catagorize your speciments according to their period and place.

3-5-8 in figure 12a is a good start

(hopefully, nothing related to its caliber )

Jens Nordlunde · 5th July 2006, 02:05 PM

Hi Puff,

Interesting stuff you are showing, although I doubt very much that many here on the forum have much use for the numbers from 300 BC

. It does however give the forumites an idea of the difficulty when it comes to inscriptions and dates.

Some dates on weapons were made older than the actual year the weapon was made, some put on later, for decoration together with an inscription or a name, or when entering an armoury, and some were, much later, faked by collectors to improve the value of the collection, so any date on a weapon should be compared with the weapon itself, to see if the date and the style it was made in seems to fit the age of the weapon.

Lew · 5th July 2006, 08:50 PM

Here is a link to a Bikiner museum with lots of interesting items.

http://www.leyline.org/cgi-bin/photo...egory=armories

The link should work now.

Lew

Jens Nordlunde · 11th January 2015, 05:03 PM

Geneacom,
I was just looking at this old thread, and I have some news.
The katar you show in post 26 is from Bundi.
I have researched these katars, and written an article about them. They are from first half of the 19th ceentury.
Jens

Edward F · 11th January 2015, 05:51 PM

The dotted markings are Bikaner markings.Most weapons I have seen have two differant dotted markings and some with inscriptions (date or Name)The dotted marks for the most part are sets of numbers lots three,

Edward F · 11th January 2015, 05:58 PM

The dotted markings are Bikaner markings.Most weapons I have seen have two differant dotted markings and some with inscriptions (date or Name)The dotted marks for the most part are sets of numbers lots three,

Inventory number,maybe the iron worker had a number,Any ones guess?

Most interesting the symbol before the 3 numbers 19b,26a,27a I believe that first symbol found before the 3 numbers can be found on all Bikaner weapons I just don't know what the first symbol means.
19b-225
20a-407
26a-573
27a-217
12a-324 this mark made during or after construction

Edward F · 11th January 2015, 06:04 PM

Post number 31 shows the unknown symbol

Jens Nordlunde · 11th January 2015, 06:05 PM

The dot marks are likely to be inventory markings, but the katar shown in post 26 is from Bundi, although it is marked with the Bikaner dot markings.
Jens

Jens Nordlunde · 11th January 2015, 07:17 PM

Edward F.
Which if the symbols in post 31 is unknown?

Although many weapons have been marked with the dot marking from Bikaner, they may not all come from Bikaner.
When a castle had been taken, and after a battle as well, the weapons of the looser would have been transported somewhere else - like Anup Singh did, to his homeland Bikaner, after the fall of Adoni. This would avoid that the same weapons were used twice against the same army.

Edward F · 11th January 2015, 08:48 PM

Jens
This is the first symbol that is unknow but appears on most if not all dotted markings

The symbol is followed by three numbers

Edward F · 11th January 2015, 08:58 PM

Post 31 they are all the same symbol (lower left symbol is odd ) as you know this dotted marking is small and to create a letter or numbers with dots on metal you will most likely not get a consistant letter.

Jens Nordlunde · 12th January 2015, 02:33 PM

As I dont read or write any off the Indian languages I asked a friend in India if he could help. Here is his answer to the dot marks i post 31 lower left corner.

"Yes you are right. It is in Gujarati (the language spoken on Indias west coast - Gujarat-Kutch state. This part borders Rajasthan. It reads bHi not bi. But I will lay my bet that it was inscribed at the Bikaner armoury by an ironsmith who used that dialect/script."

Not all the weapons in the Bikaner armory are made there, as some were looted and brought there. The workers at the Bikaner armoury were either natives from Bikaner/people who had moved there/people who had been moved there, so inscriptions could/would be a bit different.

15th September 2005, 12:36 AM	#31
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	the dotted inscriptions are thought to be inventory or shelf marks. this is a loose description, but it has been debated and no better 'guess' has been offered. they are from the bikaner armoury, as others have stated and thought to have been put onto the contents of the armoury at some point in the 19thC. there is an account from the armourer of bikaner in 1900, discussing the potential origins of some of the pieces and the placement of there marks could have hailed from this time (as it was hinted that this armourer had gone through the collection. either way, the 19thC date comes from the fact that certain 19thC pieces hold the same type of marking, as well has 16thC pieces in the same armoury. the marks were put onto all pieces, whether made in the region or captured at some point in the armouries history. some pieces (like some of your daggers) held more than one set of marks, and some had up to 4. again, this has fed the 'shelf mark' theory, in that when moved, an additional set of marks were put on. personally, i feel this is little thin, but i am happy to believe they are inventory marks of some kind. they cannot be armourers marks (which has been agreed, no matter what else is debated) as these marks were put alongside armourers marks, and were normally poorly done. also, they were put onto pieces that were many hundreds of miles apart in origin, and upto 400 years apart in date. the marks are normally numbers, and many (maybe even a majority) were preceded with a 'symbol' that was neither a number nor a letter. i have attached a compliation of this symbol found in the pieces on this particular post. what this symbol is i dont know, but hope to find out at some point in my lifetime. i have been pursuing it for a number of years and have only heard specualtion. the armoury itself (now a series of museums) cant offer any more information. an interesting point is that there did exist a written inventory, which was seen a number fo years ago. this ledger may hold clues, but i'm afraid it will never be seen again, being condemning evidence against the hoard of pieces going missing some 10 years ago (and ultimately ending up in your brothers collection). the numbers itself could be a number of different languages, but the presence of other dotted inscriptions (other than numbers and this symbol) show the language to be a strange for of devanagri, although different enough to be a possible language in itself. i have had aome of these longer inscription read, but with no satifactory results. the problem is that devenagri is a written language only, and whatever form of it this is, seems to have been forgotten many years ago. inscriptions aside, look again to the very large katar your brother has. the grip bars seem a little mishapen. this is because they could possibly have been chisselled elephant heads (one on either side - 4 in total) which was a feature shown in some other pieces from the same armoury. yours are very worn, as are the facets of the grip bars but i'm sure this was the original feature. Attached Images

16th September 2005, 01:47 AM	#35
geneacom Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 17	Every day I learn more and more, thanks for all your support and kind help. Here is the last katar for now. I have to make new photos next week. Actually, I started to make pictures only from the 3 katars with text on it plus 2 katars which I like very much (the small one with the ivory knobs and the largest one I could find in my brothers collection). Enjoy and I'll be back ... Attached Images

5th July 2006, 02:05 PM	#38
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Puff, Interesting stuff you are showing, although I doubt very much that many here on the forum have much use for the numbers from 300 BC. It does however give the forumites an idea of the difficulty when it comes to inscriptions and dates. Some dates on weapons were made older than the actual year the weapon was made, some put on later, for decoration together with an inscription or a name, or when entering an armoury, and some were, much later, faked by collectors to improve the value of the collection, so any date on a weapon should be compared with the weapon itself, to see if the date and the style it was made in seems to fit the age of the weapon.

5th July 2006, 08:50 PM	#39
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Here is a link to a Bikiner museum with lots of interesting items. http://www.leyline.org/cgi-bin/photo...egory=armories The link should work now. Lew Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 6th July 2006 at 12:25 PM.

11th January 2015, 05:51 PM	#41
Edward F Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 54	bikaner markings The dotted markings are Bikaner markings.Most weapons I have seen have two differant dotted markings and some with inscriptions (date or Name)The dotted marks for the most part are sets of numbers lots three,

15th September 2005, 04:07 AM	#32
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Excellent post, Brian. Thank you. Rob, a great wealth of information resides in this forum and its archives. The membership here has a broad base of experience from collecting to research. However, the study of ethnographic weaponry is often a rather esoteric and exotic pursuit. Poor documentation, extravagent and incredible provenance, colonialistic perspective and language barriers all contribute to the unanswered questions. It was this very lack of reliable information that first attracted me to ethnographic weapons and continues to keep me engaged and intellectually stimulated. While such things as militaria and nihonto have always fascinated me, there are few "mysteries" left to explore in those areas. These forums are often a good starting place for research and investigation, as well as a place to share knowlege, experience and speculation. I once described the process as "edged weapon free-association" (or something similar). I truly hope you'll stick around and share more with us, despite your obvious disappointment. You may yet find the answers to your questions, or even to questions you've not yet thought of. Best, Andrew

15th September 2005, 04:59 PM	#33
geneacom Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 17	Ridk, Spiral, B.I. and Andrew, thank you very much for your support! Your very interesting explanations are helping me to better understand the problems. Since I am completely new and uneducated to this matter, I have learned a lot since I joined this forum. You reply is giving me the necessary push to go on. I will start publishing new pictures tonight.

15th September 2005, 05:34 PM	#34
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Rob, Thanks for showing the katars, but as you can see from the different mails, last from Brian’s excellent answer; it is very difficult, if not impossible, at the moment, to come up with something specific about the translation. What we can conclude is, that the katars shown, most likely, have been at the Bikaner armoury at one point or another, but not necessarily were ‘born’ there. If you have read a few books on the Indian history, you will know, that wars were going on all the time, from east to west, and from north to south. Big armies moving around the country all the time, weapons getting mixed, and remixed before they ended in an armoury somewhere, and maybe years later ending up in another armoury after a lost battle. The thing of interest will therefore be, does the katar fit into the area where the armoury is, or is it likely to be from another area? As your brother has been collecting for twenty years, I guess that he is likely to have some answers to this. If you post any more pictures, please help us to a better understanding, by keeping the pictures of the whole weapon and the details together. I have no doubt that you and your brother have no problem seeing the pictures, but it will make it easier for the rest of us who don’t know the weapons. Jens

5th July 2006, 11:31 AM	#37
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	As far as I know, hindu-arabic scripts could be associated with period and place. You might be able to catagorize your speciments according to their period and place. 3-5-8 in figure 12a is a good start (hopefully, nothing related to its caliber )

11th January 2015, 05:03 PM	#40
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Geneacom, I was just looking at this old thread, and I have some news. The katar you show in post 26 is from Bundi. I have researched these katars, and written an article about them. They are from first half of the 19th ceentury. Jens

11th January 2015, 05:58 PM	#42
Edward F Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 54	bikaner markings The dotted markings are Bikaner markings.Most weapons I have seen have two differant dotted markings and some with inscriptions (date or Name)The dotted marks for the most part are sets of numbers lots three, Inventory number,maybe the iron worker had a number,Any ones guess? Most interesting the symbol before the 3 numbers 19b,26a,27a I believe that first symbol found before the 3 numbers can be found on all Bikaner weapons I just don't know what the first symbol means. 19b-225 20a-407 26a-573 27a-217 12a-324 this mark made during or after construction

11th January 2015, 06:04 PM	#43
Edward F Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 54	Post number 31 shows the unknown symbol

11th January 2015, 06:05 PM	#44
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	The dot marks are likely to be inventory markings, but the katar shown in post 26 is from Bundi, although it is marked with the Bikaner dot markings. Jens Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 11th January 2015 at 07:17 PM.

11th January 2015, 07:17 PM	#45
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Edward F. Which if the symbols in post 31 is unknown? Although many weapons have been marked with the dot marking from Bikaner, they may not all come from Bikaner. When a castle had been taken, and after a battle as well, the weapons of the looser would have been transported somewhere else - like Anup Singh did, to his homeland Bikaner, after the fall of Adoni. This would avoid that the same weapons were used twice against the same army.

11th January 2015, 08:48 PM	#46
Edward F Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 54	first symbol Jens This is the first symbol that is unknow but appears on most if not all dotted markings The symbol is followed by three numbers Attached Images

11th January 2015, 08:58 PM	#47
Edward F Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 54	symbol post 31 Post 31 they are all the same symbol (lower left symbol is odd ) as you know this dotted marking is small and to create a letter or numbers with dots on metal you will most likely not get a consistant letter.

12th January 2015, 02:33 PM	#48
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	As I dont read or write any off the Indian languages I asked a friend in India if he could help. Here is his answer to the dot marks i post 31 lower left corner. "Yes you are right. It is in Gujarati (the language spoken on Indias west coast - Gujarat-Kutch state. This part borders Rajasthan. It reads bHi not bi. But I will lay my bet that it was inscribed at the Bikaner armoury by an ironsmith who used that dialect/script." Not all the weapons in the Bikaner armory are made there, as some were looted and brought there. The workers at the Bikaner armoury were either natives from Bikaner/people who had moved there/people who had been moved there, so inscriptions could/would be a bit different.