Gunong with missing pommel

Sajen · 5th August 2012, 03:09 PM

Hello friends,

have won recently this gunong with missing pommel. When I received it there was a surprise, all fittings seems to be from silver. And the construction of the handle is very unusual in my opinion. On the tang is a piece of horn attached with a hole in up. I suppose that the missing pommel was attached with a pin through the pommel and this horn piece. do you agree? I plan to restore the gunong so all comments are very appreciated. The gunong is very heavy and has a laminated blade of a somewhat unusual form. I think to remember that Jose once write that gunong with silver fittings are from Sulu. Remember I correct?

Thanks in advance,

Detlef

Sajen · 5th August 2012, 03:11 PM

some more pictures!

Indianajones · 5th August 2012, 04:31 PM

Hi Sajen, nice piece indeed and perfect for a restaurationproject. To me the horn piece looks more newer made than the (good old) rest. Especially the end sticking out.
Though it sure is made in the Phil. and probably an attempt to restore the handle and keep all parts together.

Gonna make a wood endedhandle or a 'ivory'-one?? One sees quite some hippotooth and occasionally a whaletooth on antiquemarkets.

Good luck friend!

Sajen · 5th August 2012, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indianajones

Hi Sajen, nice piece indeed and perfect for a restaurationproject. To me the horn piece looks more newer made than the (good old) rest. Especially the end sticking out.
Though it sure is made in the Phil. and probably an attempt to restore the handle and keep all parts together.

Gonna make a wood endedhandle or a 'ivory'-one?? One sees quite some hippotooth and occasionally a whaletooth on antiquemarkets.

Good luck friend!

Hi Wouter,

good possible that this horn piece is part of an old repair, who knows? You are correct, I want to built up a new pommel from ivory, have bought some time ago an antique billard ball from ivory so I have the material. First I have to repair the silver shoe in down of the scabbard and the silver piece from the handle.

Regards,

Detlef

David · 5th August 2012, 06:50 PM

Nice restoration project for sure. These silver rings look a bit questionable to me as gunong parts though. Not sure they originally come from this blade.

Sajen · 5th August 2012, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Nice restoration project for sure. These silver rings look a bit questionable to me as gunong parts though. Not sure they originally come from this blade.

Hi David,

all by this dagger is a little bit strange!

The ring is oval in diameter and not circular but I think that it is original to it.

Regards,

Detlef

Indianajones · 6th August 2012, 11:08 AM

Quote; 'These silver rings look a bit questionable to me as gunong parts though. Not sure they originally come from this blade'

Indeed they seem more Indian-like, with those stuck on wire in a strange deco. -I could be wrong here- but much comparisson will learn. Apart from the top engraved ring, which does look more like the filipino way.
But its all quite suitable anyway, I would say; make it a nice knife again.

A billiardball!?? How are you gonna try to saw it in pieces to fit it as endpiece? Why not look for a small upper (straight) hippotooth which are not too dificult to find (antique/fleamarkets/ebay?) which are already straight, hollow and just need the end to be rounded (and sides sanded).

Sajen · 6th August 2012, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indianajones

A billiardball!?? How are you gonna try to saw it in pieces to fit it as endpiece? Why not look for a small upper (straight) hippotooth which are not too dificult to find (antique/fleamarkets/ebay?) which are already straight, hollow and just need the end to be rounded (and sides sanded).

I need ivory for other restaurations also, so I have to saw this billard ball anyway.

Gustav · 7th August 2012, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indianajones

Quote; 'These silver rings look a bit questionable to me as gunong parts though. Not sure they originally come from this blade'

Indeed they seem more Indian-like, with those stuck on wire in a strange deco. -I could be wrong here- but much comparisson will learn. Apart from the top engraved ring, which does look more like the filipino way.

It seems, such wire work we could encounter also in Philippines.

Sajen · 7th August 2012, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

It seems, such wire work we could encounter also in Philippines.

Thank you Gustav for this significant picture! Indeed very similar style.

Regards,

Detlef

Spunjer · 7th August 2012, 04:01 PM

Quote:

It seems, such wire work we could encounter also in Philippines.

here's another one from Mindanao

Robert · 7th August 2012, 04:19 PM

Here's another.

kai · 8th August 2012, 01:23 AM

Hello Detlef,

Please try to polish and etch the blade first. Unless this proves to be a really nice blade, I don't think I'd waste any ivory on it: the fittings appear to be thin and of poor quality, even for post-WW2 standards...

Regards,
Kai

Sajen · 8th August 2012, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Detlef,

Please try to polish and etch the blade first. Unless this proves to be a really nice blade, I don't think I'd waste any ivory on it: the fittings appear to be thin and of poor quality, even for post-WW2 standards...

Regards,
Kai

Hello Kai,

surely will be the next step to polish and etch the blade but I am nearly sure to see a fine lamination. Will add pictures when it is done. The silver fittings are tested and they are not thin but thick and heavy. The end cap of the scabbard and the big part of the handle now by a jeweler to let do some repairs. They are not in the best condition but think they will look better after cleaning.

Regards,

Detlef

Battara · 9th August 2012, 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

I think to remember that Jose once write that gunong with silver fittings are from Sulu. Remember I correct?

Detlef

Sorry I am getting in so late. I don't remember saying this. I do remember giving a date for the silver one I have. If I am wrong, please show me.

Also I scratch my head at the silver bands like Indiana Jones. The filigree is the right form for Moro, but the style throws me off.

I will admit, though, the bottom band looks to be Jawi filigree script - maybe this is why it looks so weird. Also the top band is Moro.

Finally most gunongs seem to be from Mindanao, according to Federico and according to the style of okir I have observed.

Rick · 9th August 2012, 04:44 PM

I weep for the fate of the antique ivory Billiard Ball .

Can't you find another source for your ivory, Detlef ?

Here, I have found Hippo tusks for sale on gunbroker.com .

Much easier to work with !

Robert · 9th August 2012, 09:28 PM

Hello Detlef, Well it looks as though you have your work cut out for you on this one. Please keep us posted on the progress. It should be a very nice gunong once you are finished with it.

Rick, I hate to say it but one time years ago I saw a group of shooters using ivory billiard balls as targets like clay pidgins. Talk about a waste !!!

Robert

Rick · 9th August 2012, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Coleman

Rick, I hate to say it but one time years ago I saw a group of shooters using ivory billiard balls as targets like clay pidgins. Talk about a waste !!!

Robert

Oh the HORROR ....

Seriously, that Hippo Ivory is prime ... and it has a natural curve .

Sajen · 10th August 2012, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Sorry I am getting in so late. I don't remember saying this. I do remember giving a date for the silver one I have. If I am wrong, please show me.

Hello Jose,

look here:http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=gunong, post #5

"Glad the fittings are silver. If true it may be Sulu. If plated, then it would probably be from Mindanao. If aluminum they would obviously be WWII."

Sajen · 10th August 2012, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I weep for the fate of the antique ivory Billiard Ball .

Can't you find another source for your ivory, Detlef ?

Here, I have found Hippo tusks for sale on gunbroker.com .

Much easier to work with !

Hello Rick,

have look long for old ivory for some restauration and have seen that ervery time again billiard balls listed in ebay and have win this one by not $70!
I am a little bit afraid to order a hippo tusk by gunbroker.com.

Isn't it on the cites list?

Regards,

Detlef

Sajen · 10th August 2012, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Coleman

Hello Detlef, Well it looks as though you have your work cut out for you on this one. Please keep us posted on the progress. It should be a very nice gunong once you are finished with it.
Robert

Thank you Robert! Of course I will post further pictures of the progress and I hope you are right!

Regards,

Detlef

Rick · 10th August 2012, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Rick,

have look long for old ivory for some restauration and have seen that ervery time again billiard balls listed in ebay and have win this one by not $.70!
I am a little bit afraid to order a hippo tusk by gunbroker.com.

Isn't it on the cites list?

Regards,

Detlef

Not to my knowlege, Detlef; the seller states that these are legal teeth .

I can inquire from the Seller or pass on their site address to you if you cannot connect with gunbroker.com .

The Seller had lots of teeth, lots .

Now, you got that ivory cue ball for seventy cents !?!?

Sajen · 10th August 2012, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Not to my knowlege, Detlef; the seller states that these are legal teeth .

When it is like this I will maybe order one.

Sajen · 10th August 2012, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Now, you got that ivory cue ball for seventy cents !?!?

No, for not $.70, for $ 70, don't know who type this dot!!

Sajen · 10th September 2012, 12:24 AM

The silver is cleaned and the end cap as well the ferrule from silver is repaired and I have etched the blade. the pictures are a little bit blurry, will take better ones tomorrow by day light. The blade become very dark by etching with vinegar but show a clear lamination. What do you think, is it worth to receive an ivory pommel?

David · 10th September 2012, 02:30 PM

Personally i think you would be wasting the ivory on this piece....and while some of those bands might well be Moro they still look to me like a mismatched grouping that were not originally together on a single hilt.

Battara · 10th September 2012, 05:20 PM

Thanks Sajen for reminding me. Maybe is the operative word. The filigree work could be Sulu or Mindanao. Seen both. If solid silver could be Sulu, though recently I think I have seen Mindanao pieces like that as well. Certainly if plated it is definitely Mindanao.

I do wonder if the scabbard is an even later replacement for this piece. Dimensions seem a little bit larger than needed for the guard.

Tough to evaluate.

T. Koch · 10th September 2012, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indianajones

Gonna make a wood endedhandle or a 'ivory'-one?? One sees quite some hippotooth and occasionally a whaletooth on antiquemarkets.

Wow, are there really documented cases of hippo ivory being used as gunong handles? There are no native hippopotamus anywhere in Asia, so the closest source would be East Africa. Wouldn't that make it the 'Unobtanium' of the times back then? Or was exclusivity exactly the point?

Cool knife - looking forward to the repair!

All the best, - Thor

David · 10th September 2012, 06:56 PM

Thor, i don't think anyone was suggesting that hippo ivory was traditionally used on gunong, just that there is some availability of that form of ivory on the market today.

Indianajones · 10th September 2012, 09:30 PM

Yep, indeed That is what I meant. Not so very (intrinsically) cultural correct as the Moros may never have seen/known hippos in their lives! The shape n form are (from the lower straight teeth) already 'handleshaped' and the endresult after grinding n sanding may just look the same as . . .

makes me think; was it seacow- or 'dugong'-teeth they used or perhaps whaletooth for the ivoryhandle. Am not sure if seacows do/did live in the Phill's and if whaletooth ever stranded there (never heard/seen myself).
Certainly have read about this question in one or two topics before but cant remember this answer was finally cleared up..?!?

5th August 2012, 03:09 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,788	Gunong with missing pommel Hello friends, have won recently this gunong with missing pommel. When I received it there was a surprise, all fittings seems to be from silver. And the construction of the handle is very unusual in my opinion. On the tang is a piece of horn attached with a hole in up. I suppose that the missing pommel was attached with a pin through the pommel and this horn piece. do you agree? I plan to restore the gunong so all comments are very appreciated. The gunong is very heavy and has a laminated blade of a somewhat unusual form. I think to remember that Jose once write that gunong with silver fittings are from Sulu. Remember I correct? Thanks in advance, Detlef Attached Images

5th August 2012, 03:11 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,788	some more pictures! Attached Images

7th August 2012, 04:19 PM	#12
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Here's another. Attached Images

9th August 2012, 04:44 PM	#16
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I weep for the fate of the antique ivory Billiard Ball . Can't you find another source for your ivory, Detlef ? Here, I have found Hippo tusks for sale on gunbroker.com . Much easier to work with ! Last edited by Rick; 9th August 2012 at 05:21 PM.

10th September 2012, 12:24 AM	#25
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,788	The silver is cleaned and the end cap as well the ferrule from silver is repaired and I have etched the blade. the pictures are a little bit blurry, will take better ones tomorrow by day light. The blade become very dark by etching with vinegar but show a clear lamination. What do you think, is it worth to receive an ivory pommel? Attached Images

5th August 2012, 04:31 PM	#3
Indianajones Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 180	Hi Sajen, nice piece indeed and perfect for a restaurationproject. To me the horn piece looks more newer made than the (good old) rest. Especially the end sticking out. Though it sure is made in the Phil. and probably an attempt to restore the handle and keep all parts together. Gonna make a wood endedhandle or a 'ivory'-one?? One sees quite some hippotooth and occasionally a whaletooth on antiquemarkets. Good luck friend!

5th August 2012, 06:50 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	Nice restoration project for sure. These silver rings look a bit questionable to me as gunong parts though. Not sure they originally come from this blade.

6th August 2012, 11:08 AM	#7
Indianajones Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 180	Quote; 'These silver rings look a bit questionable to me as gunong parts though. Not sure they originally come from this blade' Indeed they seem more Indian-like, with those stuck on wire in a strange deco. -I could be wrong here- but much comparisson will learn. Apart from the top engraved ring, which does look more like the filipino way. But its all quite suitable anyway, I would say; make it a nice knife again. A billiardball!?? How are you gonna try to saw it in pieces to fit it as endpiece? Why not look for a small upper (straight) hippotooth which are not too dificult to find (antique/fleamarkets/ebay?) which are already straight, hollow and just need the end to be rounded (and sides sanded).

8th August 2012, 01:23 AM	#13
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Detlef, Please try to polish and etch the blade first. Unless this proves to be a really nice blade, I don't think I'd waste any ivory on it: the fittings appear to be thin and of poor quality, even for post-WW2 standards... Regards, Kai

9th August 2012, 09:28 PM	#17
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Detlef, Well it looks as though you have your work cut out for you on this one. Please keep us posted on the progress. It should be a very nice gunong once you are finished with it. Rick, I hate to say it but one time years ago I saw a group of shooters using ivory billiard balls as targets like clay pidgins. Talk about a waste !!! Robert

10th September 2012, 02:30 PM	#26
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	Personally i think you would be wasting the ivory on this piece....and while some of those bands might well be Moro they still look to me like a mismatched grouping that were not originally together on a single hilt.

10th September 2012, 05:20 PM	#27
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Thanks Sajen for reminding me. Maybe is the operative word. The filigree work could be Sulu or Mindanao. Seen both. If solid silver could be Sulu, though recently I think I have seen Mindanao pieces like that as well. Certainly if plated it is definitely Mindanao. I do wonder if the scabbard is an even later replacement for this piece. Dimensions seem a little bit larger than needed for the guard. Tough to evaluate.

10th September 2012, 06:56 PM	#29
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	Thor, i don't think anyone was suggesting that hippo ivory was traditionally used on gunong, just that there is some availability of that form of ivory on the market today.

10th September 2012, 09:30 PM	#30
Indianajones Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 180	Yep, indeed That is what I meant. Not so very (intrinsically) cultural correct as the Moros may never have seen/known hippos in their lives! The shape n form are (from the lower straight teeth) already 'handleshaped' and the endresult after grinding n sanding may just look the same as . . . makes me think; was it seacow- or 'dugong'-teeth they used or perhaps whaletooth for the ivoryhandle. Am not sure if seacows do/did live in the Phill's and if whaletooth ever stranded there (never heard/seen myself). Certainly have read about this question in one or two topics before but cant remember this answer was finally cleared up..?!?