The World's Four Earliest Known Cannon Depictions

Matchlock · 3rd April 2012, 03:44 PM

Yes, it is seems hard to believe that the ball should have been virtually placed near the muzzle but period black powder recipes as well as real pieces found loaded seem to prove that that was true for at least the early 14th to the mid-15th century. It seems like the best that they could do was to achieve an actual barrel (!) length (Flug), which means minus the smaller breech, of ca. three balls at best.

There also many existing stone guns (Steinbüchsen) with barrels so short that the ball literally had to be placed at the muzzle; actually they had exactly a length of ball diameter. The attached samples are preserved in the fortress of Hohensalzburg and the Musée de l'Armée Paris. I think this fact should be acknowledged.

I am glad that you mentioned the term vase because is was such everday devices that the earliest gunmakers adopted the shapes of their guns from. For exaxmple, I attach an image of two late 13th century vase-shaped mugs from the Museum of London; ignoring their handles, they exactly look like the Loshult Gun (attached at bottom), which is very close to the pot-au-feu (fire pot) illustrated by Walter de Milimete.

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 3rd April 2012, 06:09 PM

By the mid-15th century, cannon barrels had become notably longer as this illumination in a Swiss Gothic manuscript, on the first crusade, of 1465 depicts (St. Gallen, Sitftsbibliothek, Cod.Sang. 1658, fol. 161, detail); obviously, the rules of ballistics were more closely obeyed.

m

broadaxe · 3rd April 2012, 07:17 PM

Hmmm, thinking of it, you are right about the amount of powder required back then, as during the first 100 years of gunnery the blackpowder was relatively weak. The gunners were in the process of trial & error, experiencing with the percentage of ingredients. By 1420 they made a big leap by graining the powder, hence enhancing greatly its potencial.
The short-barreled bombards with the smaller-diameter burning cell look basically the same as early 1800's mortar (aside of position of the trunnions), like this one from the walls of Acre.

Matchlock · 3rd April 2012, 08:19 PM

Yeah, mortars interestingly somehow always looked as if they were of much earlier date than they actually were.

m

Matchlock · 15th April 2012, 08:09 PM

I have found another depiction of a small cannon firing stone balls (Steinbüchse), mounted on a carriage and dating from the first half of the 14th century, in an illuminated manuscript mimiature, ca. 1344, the latter two parts including the attached miniature added ca. 1400:

Oxford University, Ms. Bodl. 264, fol. 255r.

Best,
Michael

broadaxe · 15th April 2012, 08:30 PM

Interesting enough, the cannon is depicted next to a trebuchet.

Matchlock · 15th April 2012, 08:48 PM

Right, obviously meaning to represent the more advanced technology.

m

3rd April 2012, 03:44 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Yes, it is seems hard to believe that the ball should have been virtually placed near the muzzle but period black powder recipes as well as real pieces found loaded seem to prove that that was true for at least the early 14th to the mid-15th century. It seems like the best that they could do was to achieve an actual barrel (!) length (Flug), which means minus the smaller breech, of ca. three balls at best. There also many existing stone guns (Steinbüchsen) with barrels so short that the ball literally had to be placed at the muzzle; actually they had exactly a length of ball diameter. The attached samples are preserved in the fortress of Hohensalzburg and the Musée de l'Armée Paris. I think this fact should be acknowledged. I am glad that you mentioned the term vase because is was such everday devices that the earliest gunmakers adopted the shapes of their guns from. For exaxmple, I attach an image of two late 13th century vase-shaped mugs from the Museum of London; ignoring their handles, they exactly look like the Loshult Gun (attached at bottom), which is very close to the pot-au-feu (fire pot) illustrated by Walter de Milimete. Best, Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 3rd April 2012 at 10:30 PM.

3rd April 2012, 06:09 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	By the mid-15th century, cannon barrels had become notably longer as this illumination in a Swiss Gothic manuscript, on the first crusade, of 1465 depicts (St. Gallen, Sitftsbibliothek, Cod.Sang. 1658, fol. 161, detail); obviously, the rules of ballistics were more closely obeyed. m Attached Images

3rd April 2012, 07:17 PM	#3
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 332	Hmmm, thinking of it, you are right about the amount of powder required back then, as during the first 100 years of gunnery the blackpowder was relatively weak. The gunners were in the process of trial & error, experiencing with the percentage of ingredients. By 1420 they made a big leap by graining the powder, hence enhancing greatly its potencial. The short-barreled bombards with the smaller-diameter burning cell look basically the same as early 1800's mortar (aside of position of the trunnions), like this one from the walls of Acre. Attached Images

15th April 2012, 08:09 PM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	I have found another depiction of a small cannon firing stone balls (Steinbüchse), mounted on a carriage and dating from the first half of the 14th century, in an illuminated manuscript mimiature, ca. 1344, the latter two parts including the attached miniature added ca. 1400: Oxford University, Ms. Bodl. 264, fol. 255r. Best, Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 16th April 2012 at 04:39 PM.

3rd April 2012, 08:19 PM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Yeah, mortars interestingly somehow always looked as if they were of much earlier date than they actually were. m

15th April 2012, 08:30 PM	#6
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 332	Interesting enough, the cannon is depicted next to a trebuchet.

15th April 2012, 08:48 PM	#7
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Right, obviously meaning to represent the more advanced technology. m