Afghan Sabre Quillon; Translate ?

[Rick]

Running this by again:
I know we have some new members, possibly AJ; might you have an idea about the stamp on the quillon ?

Thanks for any help .

[AJ1356]

could you get a close up pic please ?

[Rick]

Had to hunt through old posts to find it .
I think this is the proper orientation .
Thanks !

[AJ1356]

it is a year stamp, does it have anything on the other side?

[Rick]

Hi AJ, just a shadow of the stamp on the forte as far as I can tell .
Forte pictured:
A shadow on the reverse of the quillon shown in this link :
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=Afghan+Sabre

[AJ1356]

The stamp is the government seal of mehrab and munbar (kinda like the alter area of a mosque) it is 69 years old. Made in the Jangalak factory in Kabul during the reign of Zaher Shah. I saw in the link a refference to Mazar e sharif, there was not arsenal or military factory in Mazar e sharif, just the Jangalak factory, localy knon as Kaar Khaana e Jangalak, کار خانه جنگلک you'd also see that in some Marini Henries. hope it sheds some light.

[Dom]

Originally Posted by AJ1356

The stamp is the government seal of mehrab and munbar (kinda like the alter area of a mosque) it is 69 years old.

Salam Aleikum ya Khouyya
that mean that the number 1321 it's not an Hegira date ?
if was a date, it's ± 109 years old
I like to understand
thanks per anticipation, if you may clarify for me, this point

à +

Dom

[AJ1356]

God lord DOM, how many times have I mentioned this? there is two types of Hijri calenders. The start date for both is the migration of the Prophet (pbuh) from Macca to Medina. First one is based on the LUNAR calender هجری قمری, what Arabs are using, each lunar year is about 10 days shorter than a solar year. That is why for example Ramazan move roughly 10 days back each year. The second is based on the SOLAR cycles هجری شمسی, same months as Zodiac calender, used by pretty much all Non-Arabs, (Persians, Afghans, Tajiks, Kurds, Armenians, Azeri, you get the idea). The Solar or Shamsi year starts on the first days of Spring, when the new solar cycle begins. In Afghanistan before the reign of Amir Amanullah they were using the Lunar calender, when he become the King they switched and went back to Solar calender which was being used in Pre-Islamic times. In our calenders right now in each day box there are 3 dates, main one for the Solar day, smaller for Lunar and another small one for Julain date. Hope this helps you out, and stops your colorfull yet useless comments, to whatever I say.

[A.alnakkas]

AJ, I like your enthusiasm, Bro. But you are overreacting

[Rick]

Originally Posted by AJ1356

The stamp is the government seal of mehrab and munbar (kinda like the alter area of a mosque) it is 69 years old. Made in the Jangalak factory in Kabul during the reign of Zaher Shah. I saw in the link a refference to Mazar e sharif, there was not arsenal or military factory in Mazar e sharif, just the Jangalak factory, localy knon as Kaar Khaana e Jangalak, کار خانه جنگلک you'd also see that in some Marini Henries. hope it sheds some light.

Thanks AJ, but I'm a bit confused by the answer .
Are you referring above to the stamp on the quillon, or the stamp at the forte ?

Also, thank you for exploding the Mazar I sharif story .

1943 ... hm, iinteresting .

[fernando]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

AJ, I like your enthusiasm, Bro. But you are overreacting

Ditto

[AJ1356]

Sorry should have clarified, the stamp on the forte. On the quilion is just the date stamp, without the date or at least not readable to me.

[David]

Originally Posted by AJ1356

Hope this helps you out, and stops your colorfull yet useless comments, to whatever I say.

Easy gentleman...let's keep this conversation civil please...

[Dom]

Originally Posted by AJ1356

God lord DOM, how many times have I mentioned this? there is two types of Hijri calenders. ... snip ... Hope this helps you out, and stops your colorfull yet useless comments, to whatever I say.

Hi AJ
deeply sorry to have bored you, with my request, specially that you gave further explanations before

I took knowledge by reading your comments and explanations,
but my thought was, this type of calendar was used exceptionally,
I didn't knew that it has the priority upon the Hegira, at least, in Afghanistan

in West Arabic countries, we (at least, myself) dunno this calendar
last question, before, to respect as per your request to "stop my useless comments"
that disposition about calendar does it's applied in Persia (for the past), and Iran (for present time) as well as Afghanistan?
now, I'll respect your wish, nevertheless, I hope so an answer, thanks per anticipation

best regards

à +

Dom

ps/ I'm 70, and sometimes, my brain doesn't struck as fast as before ... one day, you will see

[Rick]

At this point I am hopelessly confused .

There is a mark on the quillon, but it is not a date ?

There is a mark at the forte which is 1943 ?

[AJ1356]

Rick, The mark on the forte is for the year 1943, but not the quilion, they quilion just says year, next time I am out to I'll trying finding and looking at swords like yours to see if there was anything else on the quilion.

DOM in Persia, modern day Iran, to my knowledge it happened about the same time. Supposedly around the same time they changed the name from Persia to Iran (early 20th century), they change the yeah format as well. I could be wrong, since I have not read it in a book just have heard it from different sources. In Afghanistan the months are Arabic names of the Zodiac months, and in Iran they use the ancient Persian names. Today is the 14th day of Hoot (afg) Esfand (Ir) Pisces (Zd) in the year 1390, 14/12/1390 = 04/03/2012. Nawrooz (New year) is in 16 days

[Rick]

Ah, thanks very much AJ; understood now.

It's a bit surprising that swords were being manufactured in Afghanistan during that time with WW2 in full swing .

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Rick

Ah, thanks very much AJ; understood now.

It's a bit surprising that swords were being manufactured in Afghanistan during that time with WW2 in full swing .

Salaams Rick ~ I see this question a lot and wondered if it would be better as a sticky or formally placed as a library detail under the name of the instigator above~ ...there is two types of Hijri calenders. The start date for both is the migration of the Prophet (pbuh) from Macca to Medina. First one is based on the LUNAR calender هجری قمری, what Arabs are using, each lunar year is about 10 days shorter than a solar year. That is why for example Ramazan move roughly 10 days back each year. The second is based on the SOLAR cycles هجری شمسی, same months as Zodiac calender, used by pretty much all Non-Arabs, (Persians, Afghans, Tajiks, Kurds, Armenians, Azeri, you get the idea). The Solar or Shamsi year starts on the first days of Spring, when the new solar cycle begins. In Afghanistan before the reign of Amir Amanullah they were using the Lunar calender, when he become the King they switched and went back to Solar calender which was being used in Pre-Islamic times. In our calenders right now in each day box there are 3 dates, main one for the Solar day, smaller for Lunar and another small one for Julain date.

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[David]

So how do we determine which of the Hijri calendars are in play? I must say that from the looks of this sword i am having a hard time accepting the 1943 date.

[A.alnakkas]

I'd say regional. Countries who were historically/geographically closer to Persia have adopted it.

[AJ1356]

Originally Posted by David

So how do we determine which of the Hijri calendars are in play? I must say that from the looks of this sword i am having a hard time accepting the 1943 date.

A basic rule of thumb, Arabic countries, lunar, Non-Arabic Islamic countries of Persian decent or influence, Solar. Unfortunately in Afghanistan people suck at proper up keep of swords, knives or what not. That why items look alot older than they actually are. The concept of oiling or keeping items away from moisture has been something not practiced lately.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Rick ~ I see this question a lot and wondered if it would be better as a sticky or formally placed as a library detail under the name of the instigator above~ ...there is two types of Hijri calenders. The start date for both is the migration of the Prophet (pbuh) from Macca to Medina. First one is based on the LUNAR calender هجری قمری, what Arabs are using, each lunar year is about 10 days shorter than a solar year. That is why for example Ramazan move roughly 10 days back each year. The second is based on the SOLAR cycles هجری شمسی, same months as Zodiac calender, used by pretty much all Non-Arabs, (Persians, Afghans, Tajiks, Kurds, Armenians, Azeri, you get the idea). The Solar or Shamsi year starts on the first days of Spring, when the new solar cycle begins. In Afghanistan before the reign of Amir Amanullah they were using the Lunar calender, when he become the King they switched and went back to Solar calender which was being used in Pre-Islamic times. In our calenders right now in each day box there are 3 dates, main one for the Solar day, smaller for Lunar and another small one for Julain date.

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams ~ Might I suggest that it goes under Translations on the Sticky by Jim McDougall. Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Rick

There is a mark on the quillon, but it is not a date ?

Hi Rick
my translator is back ... but big argumentation about the mark on the "quillon"
as far as, we didn't found a consensus, here our two interpretations

may be that should give some tracks to our friend "AJ",
specially about the digits that "I think" have read
I leave to "AJ" to see with the "Solar calendar", if that could makes sense
keep hope

the words according if we take the sign ^ in consideration or not, should be a name
- with ^ CHARD just a name (?) *
- without ^ SARD just a name (?) *

à +

Dom

* post correction/
- not "chard" but "SHAHD"
- not "sard" but "SAHD"

[AJ1356]

DOM I really love your imagination and commitment it is good But that tends to complicate things mostly, in the stamp we just have the word سنه (sana)(year) then there is the backwards ی symbolizing Hejri , then from bottom up there is what looks like a / the | that goes through سنه and what looks like the number 8 ۸. Now that latter 3 really just add to confusion and do not make and sense, one can't make any numbers out of them or anything. To me they are just flukes, I went and looked at some other swords of the same with the same stamp and those charactors were not present. The words suggested SHARD شرد (شارد) or SAHD سهد (ساهد( do not make anything. If I find a nice example of these I'll take a pic but for now, let's stop torturing Rick, I think he has alot of good info on the item Always looking forward to your colorful pics