Balinese Keris For Comment

Lew · 3rd August 2005, 02:06 AM

Hi Guys

This just ended. http://cgi.ebay.com/kris-knife-keris...QQcmdZViewItem

It looks more recent but of good quality it shows a nice pamor. Here are some close ups of the blade.

Lew

Rick · 3rd August 2005, 12:59 PM

Hi Lew , I bought this piece from the same Seller :
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=6544786628

The workmanship is quite good .
I'm pretty pleased with it for new Madura work , those guys are getting pretty advanced .

Only problem I had with my piece is that the gandar had twisted making for a poor,and very tight fit for the blade . I have been adderessing this problem with 60 grit sandpaper and the fit has improved quite a bit .
Instead of that funky deerhorn it now sports an ebony Kocet kocetan .

I like the pamor on mine (it's chatoyant) , but is probably not correct for a Bali blade .

Pictures when I get my computer back .

nechesh · 3rd August 2005, 01:39 PM

Hey Lew, like Rick's example from the same dealer, this one is also recent and not Balinese work. There are file marks on it that you would never find on Balinese pieces. It probably comes from Madura. I do agree that the workmanship is fairly nice on it.

Boedhi Adhitya · 4th August 2005, 06:34 AM

Hei Lew, I agree with Nechesh and Rick opinions. Your blade came from Madura, and a fairly nice piece too.
The Madura makers have fairly advanced today. Some of them have became specialists, only doing the cold working or only work on the forging process. By doing so, their mastery in this art will be quite high. Today first-class work of Madura would almost 100% identic with the Java nem-neman works, from late 19 - early 20 c. But for the Bali style, well, it is probably not that good and still easily identifies.

best regards.

nechesh · 4th August 2005, 12:28 PM

[QUOTE=Boedhi Adhitya] Today first-class work of Madura would almost 100% identic with the Java nem-neman works, from late 19 - early 20 c. But for the Bali style, well, it is probably not that good and still easily identifies.
[QUOTE]

Give them time.....

Rick · 4th August 2005, 02:27 PM

I'll only be frowning if they're passed off as real Nechesh .

I am not aware of evidence of a resurgence of keris making in Bali and I love Bali pieces as I know you do .

We must be honest with ourselves ; the Madura bunch are the only ones really keeping keris making alive for us plebians who cannot dream of affording a high quality Jawa or Bali piece .

Much better to see the Maduran work approaching high standards than to see the art die out forever , no ?

Rick

Mans · 4th August 2005, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boedhi Adhitya

.... The Madura makers have fairly advanced today. Some of them have became specialists, only doing the cold working or only work on the forging process.......
.... But for the Bali style, well, it is probably not that good and still easily identifies.

best regards.

I posted another example of Maduranese keris in Balinese style with nice looks pamor pattern.

Rgds,
Mans.

Boedhi Adhitya · 5th August 2005, 05:05 AM

Well, that's a good Bali-style blade, Mans ! I'm inexperience in Bali blades, but if only The Maduras work on watermelon-skin pamor and polish the blade (sangling) like most Balinesse do, most of all would be in troubles

Nechesh, I regret that the time seems has almost, if not already, come

Be prepare and.. good luck !

The new kerises has also been becoming my concern. There is a confusion in Java on how to treat this new breed. In spite of growing acceptance, most Javanese (and other Indonesian) still treating kerises more than just an art.
But in the end, we have to ask ourselves, what we are really looking at.

In case of Bali blades, if the Madura smiths move to Bali, perhaps the acceptance would be higher, since the blades is really "made in Bali", it would not be felt as a "Rolex made in China". Just my speculative thought

best regards

Rick · 6th August 2005, 03:56 AM

Finally got up and running again , it only cost me a new CPU .

Trying out a picture of my new Bali keris .

Lew · 6th August 2005, 05:27 AM

Rick

It's stunning! Were did you get that hilt?

Lew

John · 6th August 2005, 05:51 AM

Beautiful piece Rick. Also have been told the Kocet kocetan was only allowed (?) for the priests in Bali (brahmin caste) once upon a time athough it has been unclear to me why or how so. If anyone know?

nechesh · 6th August 2005, 01:33 PM

Nice hilt Rick. Is that horn with the ivory or ebony? I wouldn't mind seeing some close-ups of your blade.
Mans, the pamor on your example is very intricate and interesting, but there isn't much chance of mistaking it for Balinese work. Both the dapur and the pamor don't seem right for a Balinese piece. Only the dress appears Balinese and even there they used the wrong mendak.
As i'm sure you know Rick, i don't really have a problem with Madurese perfecting Balinese type blades as long as they are not passed off as the real deal. The problem, of course, is that once they leave the smith there is little control as to how they will be presented to the collecting public. But clearly it is these Madurese smith and i believe a few in Jawa who are keeping the art alive. Sadly, it is doubtful that the very few empus that are left will be able to keep that level of keris making alive for very much longer.

I don't think this necessarily means an end to high quality keris making, but it may mean an end to the keris as a true cultural and spiritual object.

Rick · 6th August 2005, 02:35 PM

Hi Lew,
I'd rather not say where the hilt was purchased .

We can discuss it via PM though .

John , here's a little information I gleaned from Google about Kocet kocetan .
http://www.nikhef.nl/~tonvr/keris/ke...ris_gal02.html

Nechesh , it's ebony .
I do agree with you about the loss of the x factor in the new pieces .

On the other hand couldn't a 'talent' (practioner of majik) imbue the new keris with an x factor himself ?
I'll try to get another picture in this post of the pamor ; it is chatoyant .

Finally , yes the auction pictures were barely adequate .

Pamor close up added :

BluErf · 9th August 2005, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Finally got up and running again , it only cost me a new CPU .

Trying out a picture of my new Bali keris .

Hi Rick,

Its a nice keris. I especially like the graceful curl of the kembang kacang and the way the jalen underneath stretches out, almost like an elephant's lips opening to receive something from the trunk.

I have been noticing kerises with a 'look' that's similar to this piece, appearing on ebay and other auction houses recently. Very interesting observation is that the pamor lines are the 'thin' sort, not the 'thick' sort I usually see. The luks also look similar - shallow, stretched out, and quite equidistant from base to tip; not quite the sort seen in the books. Finally, the sheaths on these kerises also have a similar 'look'. I can only clumsily describe it as broader vertically, but more compact horizontally. And the wood -- usually not kayu pelet.

I wonder if this sort of kerises comes from E Java instead (ok, its a guess)? Presumably E Javanese kerises have significant influences from Balinese/Lombok kerises, but still retaining some special characteristics of their own?

BluErf · 9th August 2005, 03:12 PM

Btw, I thought Rick's keris has a level higher of artistry than typical Madurese work, and the sheath is made from different materials usually seen on Madurese work, hence, I thought there may be another centre of keris crafting near Bali/Lombok that is producing these Balinese kerises. Somewhere on Easterb Java seems likely. Of course, I could be mistaken. There could be a village on Madura specialising in Balinese kerises, and they use different wood from the villages making Javanese kerises. But anyhow, just compare Rick's keris with Mans' keris, and you can see some difference in style already.

Madura or another centre of keris crafting?

One more point -- Rick's keris is more 'fine-boned' than the Balinese kerises I've seen. Not in terms of finese of work, but it has this compact feel, like something between a Javanese keris and a Balinese keris.

See below for examples of 'thick-lined' pamors on Balinese/Lombok kerises I have.

Rick · 9th August 2005, 03:37 PM

Hi Guys ,

First , I think Lew's example is every bit as nice as mine .
I think it's the hilt that may set them apart .

All of these kerisses have been offered by the same Seller on ebay .
He is a Californian , and if IRC spent time in Madura , E.Jawa , Bali and Lombok . He did not state where he bought the kerisses but he did say that he bought a great amount of tombaks while visiting Madura .

The workmanship on all these pieces is as you say quite good for contemporary work although a little lacking on final finish , and in my case scabbard fit . I would suspect that they all were acquired from the same native source .

There are also certain aspects to these keris that remind me of early work from Bantam , W. Jawa .

nechesh · 10th August 2005, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I do agree with you about the loss of the x factor in the new pieces .

On the other hand couldn't a 'talent' (practioner of majik) imbue the new keris with an x factor himself ?
I'll try to get another picture in this post of the pamor ; it is chatoyant .
:

In a word Rick, ABSOLUTELY! But if i told you how i would have to kill you.

Rick · 10th August 2005, 01:42 AM

Mick · 10th August 2005, 04:38 PM

Gentlemen

Here is what a good one looks like.

BSMStar · 10th August 2005, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick

Gentlemen

Here is what a good one looks like.

Hey Mick.......

Just in case you hear any noises.... that was me having a heart attack!!!
A gorgeous hilt!!!!!!!!!!

Rick · 10th August 2005, 06:51 PM

Very good indeed Mick !

Would that I could afford such goodness .

nechesh · 10th August 2005, 10:02 PM

Hey Mick, i think you should qualify the use of the term "good one" here. Maybe "here's what a nice gold and bejewelled one looks like"

Frankly, i find yours a bit too much for my tastes and much prefer Rick's. This would also be an incorrect hilt for Rick's blade (but then so would Rick's since this isn't a priest's blade

) as it far outshines the blade itself. It is, however, beautifully executed and i thank you for showing it.

Rick · 10th August 2005, 10:16 PM

I have a tendecy toward incorrectness .

Would that I had a Balinese priest's keris Nechesh .

/cough

nechesh · 10th August 2005, 10:48 PM

Well Rick....you know (cough!)....aahhh, just for correctness sake, you know....we could just swap hilts.

Rick · 10th August 2005, 10:55 PM

Better half a loaf than none buddy ....

Rocarnice · 11th August 2005, 05:52 PM

Hello,
I've only become a member today. I am a sword collector and by chance got in possession of I think a beautiful Keris Bali with a silver/gold? Brahmaan hilt. I am preparing some pics which I will put on the forum later so hoping that you can give me some more interesting details. I think it is more than 100 years old and what I am most curious about is if the Brahmaan symbol has often been used as a hilt for keris. Myself I have done some research on the internet but couldn't find any keris yet with such a Brahmaan (Brahmin) hilt.
thanks.

Rick · 11th August 2005, 06:08 PM

Hello and welcome Rocarnice !

Looking forward to seeing your pictures .

Picture posting information can be found in the first post at the top of the forum page .

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4

Rocarnice · 11th August 2005, 09:16 PM

Hi Rick,

Here are some pics, hope they're of good quality in order to do a first assessment. Please let me know if more pics are necessary, for instance of the blade... Thanks

Tim Simmons · 11th August 2005, 09:27 PM

This really is not my cup of tea but in this we see that folded finger gesture in the right hand, like in the thread started by wolviex. Tim

nechesh · 11th August 2005, 10:32 PM

Hi Rocarnice, pretty looking keris you've got there.

The photos aren't great, but i would hazzard a guess that this is a fairly recent creation, especially the hilt. This isn't to say it doesn't have value and the silver, gold and all those stones are very nice.
I would also bet this is not a Balinese keris, inspite of it's initial appearence. The kinatah work (gold) on the blade does not look like Balinese work (i think only very few Bali keris have kinatah at all and those patterns and execution are different) and the keris does not appear to have the type of polished finish which is common on Balinese keris. Perhaps another recent Madurese blade? It is possible that the blade is older and it's just the kinatah that's new, but for somehow i doubt that. From the last photo it appears to have that even wear finish that is common on artifically aged Madurese keris. This looks like the type of flashy keris that is created to attract the western collectors. Pretty and certainly worth it's weight in gold, silver and gemstones.

3rd August 2005, 02:06 AM	#1
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Balinese Keris For Comment Hi Guys This just ended. http://cgi.ebay.com/kris-knife-keris...QQcmdZViewItem It looks more recent but of good quality it shows a nice pamor. Here are some close ups of the blade. Lew Attached Images Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 3rd August 2005 at 02:41 AM.

3rd August 2005, 12:59 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Same Seller Hi Lew , I bought this piece from the same Seller : http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=6544786628 The workmanship is quite good . I'm pretty pleased with it for new Madura work , those guys are getting pretty advanced . Only problem I had with my piece is that the gandar had twisted making for a poor,and very tight fit for the blade . I have been adderessing this problem with 60 grit sandpaper and the fit has improved quite a bit . Instead of that funky deerhorn it now sports an ebony Kocet kocetan . I like the pamor on mine (it's chatoyant) , but is probably not correct for a Bali blade . Pictures when I get my computer back .

6th August 2005, 03:56 AM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Finally got up and running again , it only cost me a new CPU . Trying out a picture of my new Bali keris . Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 7th August 2005 at 02:55 AM.

6th August 2005, 02:35 PM	#13
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Hi Lew, I'd rather not say where the hilt was purchased . We can discuss it via PM though . John , here's a little information I gleaned from Google about Kocet kocetan . http://www.nikhef.nl/~tonvr/keris/ke...ris_gal02.html Nechesh , it's ebony . I do agree with you about the loss of the x factor in the new pieces . On the other hand couldn't a 'talent' (practioner of majik) imbue the new keris with an x factor himself ? I'll try to get another picture in this post of the pamor ; it is chatoyant . Finally , yes the auction pictures were barely adequate . Pamor close up added : Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 7th August 2005 at 02:57 AM.

9th August 2005, 03:12 PM	#15
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Btw, I thought Rick's keris has a level higher of artistry than typical Madurese work, and the sheath is made from different materials usually seen on Madurese work, hence, I thought there may be another centre of keris crafting near Bali/Lombok that is producing these Balinese kerises. Somewhere on Easterb Java seems likely. Of course, I could be mistaken. There could be a village on Madura specialising in Balinese kerises, and they use different wood from the villages making Javanese kerises. But anyhow, just compare Rick's keris with Mans' keris, and you can see some difference in style already. Madura or another centre of keris crafting? One more point -- Rick's keris is more 'fine-boned' than the Balinese kerises I've seen. Not in terms of finese of work, but it has this compact feel, like something between a Javanese keris and a Balinese keris. See below for examples of 'thick-lined' pamors on Balinese/Lombok kerises I have. Attached Images

3rd August 2005, 01:39 PM	#3
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Hey Lew, like Rick's example from the same dealer, this one is also recent and not Balinese work. There are file marks on it that you would never find on Balinese pieces. It probably comes from Madura. I do agree that the workmanship is fairly nice on it.

4th August 2005, 06:34 AM	#4
Boedhi Adhitya Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 103	Hei Lew, I agree with Nechesh and Rick opinions. Your blade came from Madura, and a fairly nice piece too. The Madura makers have fairly advanced today. Some of them have became specialists, only doing the cold working or only work on the forging process. By doing so, their mastery in this art will be quite high. Today first-class work of Madura would almost 100% identic with the Java nem-neman works, from late 19 - early 20 c. But for the Bali style, well, it is probably not that good and still easily identifies. best regards.

4th August 2005, 12:28 PM	#5
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	[QUOTE=Boedhi Adhitya] Today first-class work of Madura would almost 100% identic with the Java nem-neman works, from late 19 - early 20 c. But for the Bali style, well, it is probably not that good and still easily identifies. [QUOTE] Give them time.....

4th August 2005, 02:27 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	I'll only be frowning if they're passed off as real Nechesh . I am not aware of evidence of a resurgence of keris making in Bali and I love Bali pieces as I know you do . We must be honest with ourselves ; the Madura bunch are the only ones really keeping keris making alive for us plebians who cannot dream of affording a high quality Jawa or Bali piece . Much better to see the Maduran work approaching high standards than to see the art die out forever , no ? Rick

5th August 2005, 05:05 AM	#8
Boedhi Adhitya Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 103	Well, that's a good Bali-style blade, Mans ! I'm inexperience in Bali blades, but if only The Maduras work on watermelon-skin pamor and polish the blade (sangling) like most Balinesse do, most of all would be in troubles Nechesh, I regret that the time seems has almost, if not already, come Be prepare and.. good luck ! The new kerises has also been becoming my concern. There is a confusion in Java on how to treat this new breed. In spite of growing acceptance, most Javanese (and other Indonesian) still treating kerises more than just an art. But in the end, we have to ask ourselves, what we are really looking at. In case of Bali blades, if the Madura smiths move to Bali, perhaps the acceptance would be higher, since the blades is really "made in Bali", it would not be felt as a "Rolex made in China". Just my speculative thought best regards

6th August 2005, 05:27 AM	#10
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Rick It's stunning! Were did you get that hilt? Lew

6th August 2005, 05:51 AM	#11
John Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Land below the wind Posts: 135	Beautiful piece Rick. Also have been told the Kocet kocetan was only allowed (?) for the priests in Bali (brahmin caste) once upon a time athough it has been unclear to me why or how so. If anyone know?

6th August 2005, 01:33 PM	#12
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Nice hilt Rick. Is that horn with the ivory or ebony? I wouldn't mind seeing some close-ups of your blade. Mans, the pamor on your example is very intricate and interesting, but there isn't much chance of mistaking it for Balinese work. Both the dapur and the pamor don't seem right for a Balinese piece. Only the dress appears Balinese and even there they used the wrong mendak. As i'm sure you know Rick, i don't really have a problem with Madurese perfecting Balinese type blades as long as they are not passed off as the real deal. The problem, of course, is that once they leave the smith there is little control as to how they will be presented to the collecting public. But clearly it is these Madurese smith and i believe a few in Jawa who are keeping the art alive. Sadly, it is doubtful that the very few empus that are left will be able to keep that level of keris making alive for very much longer. I don't think this necessarily means an end to high quality keris making, but it may mean an end to the keris as a true cultural and spiritual object.

9th August 2005, 03:37 PM	#16
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Hi Guys , First , I think Lew's example is every bit as nice as mine . I think it's the hilt that may set them apart . All of these kerisses have been offered by the same Seller on ebay . He is a Californian , and if IRC spent time in Madura , E.Jawa , Bali and Lombok . He did not state where he bought the kerisses but he did say that he bought a great amount of tombaks while visiting Madura . The workmanship on all these pieces is as you say quite good for contemporary work although a little lacking on final finish , and in my case scabbard fit . I would suspect that they all were acquired from the same native source . There are also certain aspects to these keris that remind me of early work from Bantam , W. Jawa .

10th August 2005, 01:42 AM	#18
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290

10th August 2005, 04:38 PM	#19
Mick Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 104	Gentlemen Here is what a good one looks like. Attached Images

10th August 2005, 06:51 PM	#21
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Very good indeed Mick ! Would that I could afford such goodness .

10th August 2005, 10:02 PM	#22
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Hey Mick, i think you should qualify the use of the term "good one" here. Maybe "here's what a nice gold and bejewelled one looks like" Frankly, i find yours a bit too much for my tastes and much prefer Rick's. This would also be an incorrect hilt for Rick's blade (but then so would Rick's since this isn't a priest's blade ) as it far outshines the blade itself. It is, however, beautifully executed and i thank you for showing it.

10th August 2005, 10:16 PM	#23
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	I have a tendecy toward incorrectness . Would that I had a Balinese priest's keris Nechesh . /cough

10th August 2005, 10:48 PM	#24
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Well Rick....you know (cough!)....aahhh, just for correctness sake, you know....we could just swap hilts.

10th August 2005, 10:55 PM	#25
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Erm ...... Better half a loaf than none buddy ....

11th August 2005, 05:52 PM	#26
Rocarnice Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 5	Keris Bali for comments (1) Hello, I've only become a member today. I am a sword collector and by chance got in possession of I think a beautiful Keris Bali with a silver/gold? Brahmaan hilt. I am preparing some pics which I will put on the forum later so hoping that you can give me some more interesting details. I think it is more than 100 years old and what I am most curious about is if the Brahmaan symbol has often been used as a hilt for keris. Myself I have done some research on the internet but couldn't find any keris yet with such a Brahmaan (Brahmin) hilt. thanks.

11th August 2005, 06:08 PM	#27
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Hello and welcome Rocarnice ! Looking forward to seeing your pictures . Picture posting information can be found in the first post at the top of the forum page . http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4

11th August 2005, 09:16 PM	#28
Rocarnice Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 5	Hi Rick, Here are some pics, hope they're of good quality in order to do a first assessment. Please let me know if more pics are necessary, for instance of the blade... Thanks Attached Images

11th August 2005, 09:27 PM	#29
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	This really is not my cup of tea but in this we see that folded finger gesture in the right hand, like in the thread started by wolviex. Tim

11th August 2005, 10:32 PM	#30
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Hi Rocarnice, pretty looking keris you've got there. The photos aren't great, but i would hazzard a guess that this is a fairly recent creation, especially the hilt. This isn't to say it doesn't have value and the silver, gold and all those stones are very nice. I would also bet this is not a Balinese keris, inspite of it's initial appearence. The kinatah work (gold) on the blade does not look like Balinese work (i think only very few Bali keris have kinatah at all and those patterns and execution are different) and the keris does not appear to have the type of polished finish which is common on Balinese keris. Perhaps another recent Madurese blade? It is possible that the blade is older and it's just the kinatah that's new, but for somehow i doubt that. From the last photo it appears to have that even wear finish that is common on artifically aged Madurese keris. This looks like the type of flashy keris that is created to attract the western collectors. Pretty and certainly worth it's weight in gold, silver and gemstones.