Manuscript obout 15 century firearms

Spiridonov · 27th December 2011, 10:23 PM

http://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/en/zbz...33b/1r/x-large
Zürich
Zentralbibliothek
Shelfmark: Ms. Rh. hist. 33b
Manuscript title: War technology (Illuminated Manuscript)
Caption: Paper · 168 ff. · 30.0 x 21.0 cm · Upper Rhine · about 1420-1440
Manuscript summary: This codex contains a rare illuminated manuscript constituted entirely by illuminated pages, for each of which only a succinct caption is given, most often only a line of text, and which therefore provides exceptional historical image-sources for numerous domains. The pictures presented here of military technology were perhaps originally part of a medieval house book. A typical collector’s item, this illuminated manuscript underscores the collection character of the Rheinau conventual library, whose librarians and abbots were expressly on the lookout for rare books.

Spiridonov · 27th December 2011, 10:50 PM

Michael, may You translate this inscription? Unfortunately I don't understand in German Gothic fonts

Matchlock · 27th December 2011, 10:55 PM

Great find as always, Alexander.

Here is the link to a better overall view:

http://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/en/zbz...0033b/1r/small

I must get re-adjusted to South German/Swiss dialect in the early 1400's, then I might be able to give you some clue. The main problem with all manuscripts is to get used to the individual writer's 'hand' ...

Best,
Michael

Spiridonov · 27th December 2011, 11:00 PM

We can see the typical medieval lathe for wood, but I can't anderstand what is turner doing...
p/s
Michael, please, look ALL pages. There are many interesting for You. There are a lot of information about early firearms

Matchlock · 27th December 2011, 11:04 PM

I know, Alex,

Please allow a few days ...

P.S Did you have a White Christmas in St. Petersburg?

In Bavaria, we didn't ...

m

Matchlock · 27th December 2011, 11:15 PM

I'm facing some serious difficulties finding the correct mansuscript title and accessing it for more information.
Could you help me, my friend?
m

Spiridonov · 27th December 2011, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

P.S Did you have a White Christmas in St. Petersburg?

No, we haven't. It is too warm.

Spiridonov · 27th December 2011, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Could you help me, my friend?
m

What can I help You? I just know that title is Kriegstechnik

Matchlock · 27th December 2011, 11:59 PM

The problem is: on their web site, no enters seem to be accepted ...

How did you find it?

cannonmn · 28th December 2011, 12:41 AM

Wow, that's quite something, like a primer on siege warfare, making gunpowder, various kinds of firearms, incendiary weapons, petards, scaling ladders, etc. etc. plus some pages I can't connect with the other subjects. One is a woman washing another woman's hair, I think. What I can't figure out is where this has been throughout history until, what, 1950? I'll have to check "Quellen zur Geschichte der Feuerwaffen" as some of the devices look somewhat familiar. But "Quellen..." dates from late 19th C., well before this codex was generally known, I think?

There's a very complex (for the time) twin-cylinder water-powered pulverizing mill shown, which I would not have thought would have been availabile at that time.

Matchlock · 28th December 2011, 01:15 AM

John,
There have been several predecessor illustatrions before the 1430's, especially the one by Konrad Kyeser or Eichstätt, 1405. So all these illustrations of devices more or less duplicated themselves thoughout the 15th c. and hardly any news can be expected before the Maximilan Zeugbücher ot the early 1500's.

m

Swordfish · 29th December 2011, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spiridonov

Michael, may You translate this inscription? Unfortunately I don't understand in German Gothic fonts

Hallo,

I was able to read the text, except of two words.
In German:
Da macht ein Dreyer(Dreher) Kerzn(Kerzen, Fackeln).......
er Dir Din(deine) Pfil(Pfeile)machen sol(soll)
In English:
Here a turner makes torchs.....
he should make you your arrows

Regards
Susi

cannonmn · 30th December 2011, 11:41 AM

Susi, thanks! I often run into people who sincerely believe the lathe was not invented until about the 18th C if not later. This should shut them up.

Did you see the illustation of the woman with the "earmuffs" hairdo doing something to another woman's hair (or something like that?) I'm not sure how that relates to military technology but if it is easy to read and you could find it easily, what does that one say? Each image takes a long time to load here, which is why it is impractical for me to find the number. Is there an index or thumbnal gallery of any kind with this codex?

Spiridonov · 30th December 2011, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cannonmn

Susi, thanks! I often run into people who sincerely believe the lathe was not invented until about the 18th C if not later. This should shut them up.

Lathes appear about 600 year b.c.

cannonmn · 30th December 2011, 04:26 PM

Thanks Spiri. You must be familiar with the Museum of Artillery and Engineer Troops nearby. I love old artillery but was unaware of that great museum until I found the X???? website with many photos about 8 years ago.

If you have photos that are different from those on the website, particularly any of the more elaborate items, I know they would be welcomed on this site.

I missed a wonderful model that once belonged to Potemkin, had his coat of arms cast into the barrel and repeated in paint on each side of the carriage, at auction. I was "underbidder" sadly. It was antique, original, and in great condition. As I recall it was about 50 cm long, total.

Here are some larger ones identical to the smaller one I was trying to get.

http://www.stephenwoodresearch.com/port/pot01.htm

Matchlock · 30th December 2011, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cannonmn

Wow, that's quite something, like a primer on siege warfare, making gunpowder, various kinds of firearms, incendiary weapons, petards, scaling ladders, etc. etc. plus some pages I can't connect with the other subjects. One is a woman washing another woman's hair, I think. What I can't figure out is where this has been throughout history until, what, 1950? I'll have to check "Quellen zur Geschichte der Feuerwaffen" as some of the devices look somewhat familiar. But "Quellen..." dates from late 19th C., well before this codex was generally known, I think?

There's a very complex (for the time) twin-cylinder water-powered pulverizing mill shown, which I would not have thought would have been availabile at that time.

As I said there are many similar books from the early to the late 1400's, and one author copied from the other.

Best,
m

fernando · 30th December 2011, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

I know, Alex,

Please allow a few days ...

P.S Did you have a White Christmas in St. Petersburg?

In Bavaria, we didn't ...

m

Over here in my home town the skies are pure blue and the sun is shining for the last two weeks.
8º at 10 am (when i get up

) and 16º at noon.
How's that for Christmas ?

fernando · 30th December 2011, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spiridonov

We can see the typical medieval lathe for wood, but I can't anderstand what is turner doing...

Hand cannon stocks?

fernando · 31st December 2011, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

... I must get re-adjusted to South German/Swiss dialect in the early 1400's, then I might be able to give you some clue. The main problem with all manuscripts is to get used to the individual writer's 'hand' ...

What a pity these manuscripts don't come with 'readable' legends ... definitely a tremendous added value

cannonmn · 31st December 2011, 02:26 AM

Maybe you missed it when Susi said the caption mentioned the turner was making torches. I assume those would be to illuminate when night work was required such as repairing battered walls, throwing up siege lines, etc. Wonder if those could also have been used as early portfires which provided the flame to ignite slowmatch or tinder for cannon and arquebus firing? Historians seem to be at somewhat of a loss for what means was used to keep live fires on the battlefield for that purpose.

Spiridonov · 31st December 2011, 08:56 AM

What is the cones on the box? Is it possible that this cones is charges or wooden wads?

Swordfish · 31st December 2011, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spiridonov

What is the cones on the box? Is it possible that this cones is charges or wooden wads?

Surely interchangeable wooden charges for the torchs, filled with beeswax or tallow or other slow burning substance.

Susi

Matchlock · 31st December 2011, 04:52 PM

I think they are.

m

Spiridonov · 3rd January 2012, 09:45 PM

The most interesting images:
http://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/en/zbz...3b/21v/x-large
http://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/en/zbz...3b/35v/x-large
http://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/en/zbz...3b/87r/x-large
http://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/en/zbz...3b/89r/x-large
http://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/en/zbz...b/113v/x-large
Look at the last picture. There are something look like drill. Can somebody translate this? I would be great to translate all this titles

Matchlock · 3rd January 2012, 10:15 PM

Hi Alexander,

On the quick I cannot decipher everything but I hope Swordfish can help a lot!

1. Der kunst macht wol gewissen, ... läuft man (?) gefahr verdorben pulver mag schiessen.
Although you may be sure of your command of the art, the danger remains to fire foul powder.

2. Wie man blos machen soll, macht den dreier nicht wol?!

3. Die puchsen stain sint gut, der fy ...?
The stone balls are of good quality, ...?

4. Der p? ist nicht verloren, wo du vil ? sollst machen?

5. Die gesellen mit der puchsen pehent schiessen wellen.
The guys intend firing their guns properly.

Swordfish, are you there?

Best,
Michael

cannonmn · 3rd January 2012, 10:15 PM

First one: "Hans, haven't I told you a hundred times not to prime the hot cannon with a full flask of gunpowder!" (aber meine Deutsch is sehr schlecht)

cannonmn · 3rd January 2012, 10:36 PM

This one was translated by my Swiss e-penpal "Fidbald" who can actually read many of them:

"If you want to walk on water you have to wear shoes."

http://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/en/zbz...33b/68v/medium

For quicker access to these, go to dropdown menu on top entitled "view" and select thumbnail or another of your choice, In the line of black rectangles, selecting smallest will cause much faster downloading.

Matchlock · 3rd January 2012, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cannonmn

First one: "Hans, haven't I told you a hundred times not to prime the hot cannon with a full flask of gunpowder!" (aber meine Deutsch is sehr schlecht)

Sorry John,

I clearly beg to differ. It cleary reads kunst and verdobn pulver!

m

Matchlock · 3rd January 2012, 10:48 PM

[QUOTE=cannonmn]This one was translated by my Swiss e-penpal "Fidbald" who can actually read many of them:

"If you want to walk on water you have to wear shoes."

That's right, John,

The Medieval German text reads 'Wilst über wasser gan, leg dy (dir) schurh an'.

Matchlock · 3rd January 2012, 10:58 PM

[QUOTE=Spiridonov]The most interesting images:
http://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/en/zbz...3b/21v/x-large
http://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/en/zbz...3b/35v/x-large
http://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/en/zbz...3b/87r/x-large
http://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/en/zbz...3b/89r/x-large
http://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/en/zbz...b/113v/x-large

Here are the images.
m

27th December 2011, 10:23 PM	#1
Spiridonov Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Russia, Leningrad Posts: 355	Manuscript obout 15 century firearms http://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/en/zbz...33b/1r/x-large Zürich Zentralbibliothek Shelfmark: Ms. Rh. hist. 33b Manuscript title: War technology (Illuminated Manuscript) Caption: Paper · 168 ff. · 30.0 x 21.0 cm · Upper Rhine · about 1420-1440 Manuscript summary: This codex contains a rare illuminated manuscript constituted entirely by illuminated pages, for each of which only a succinct caption is given, most often only a line of text, and which therefore provides exceptional historical image-sources for numerous domains. The pictures presented here of military technology were perhaps originally part of a medieval house book. A typical collector’s item, this illuminated manuscript underscores the collection character of the Rheinau conventual library, whose librarians and abbots were expressly on the lookout for rare books.

27th December 2011, 10:50 PM	#2
Spiridonov Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Russia, Leningrad Posts: 355	Michael, may You translate this inscription? Unfortunately I don't understand in German Gothic fonts Attached Images

28th December 2011, 01:15 AM	#11
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	John, There have been several predecessor illustatrions before the 1430's, especially the one by Konrad Kyeser or Eichstätt, 1405. So all these illustrations of devices more or less duplicated themselves thoughout the 15th c. and hardly any news can be expected before the Maximilan Zeugbücher ot the early 1500's. m Last edited by Matchlock; 28th December 2011 at 02:55 AM.

3rd January 2012, 10:58 PM	#30
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	[QUOTE=Spiridonov]The most interesting images: http://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/en/zbz...3b/21v/x-large http://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/en/zbz...3b/35v/x-large http://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/en/zbz...3b/87r/x-large http://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/en/zbz...3b/89r/x-large http://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/en/zbz...b/113v/x-large Here are the images. m Attached Images

27th December 2011, 10:55 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Great find as always, Alexander. Here is the link to a better overall view: http://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/en/zbz...0033b/1r/small I must get re-adjusted to South German/Swiss dialect in the early 1400's, then I might be able to give you some clue. The main problem with all manuscripts is to get used to the individual writer's 'hand' ... Best, Michael

27th December 2011, 11:00 PM	#4
Spiridonov Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Russia, Leningrad Posts: 355	We can see the typical medieval lathe for wood, but I can't anderstand what is turner doing... p/s Michael, please, look ALL pages. There are many interesting for You. There are a lot of information about early firearms

27th December 2011, 11:04 PM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	I know, Alex, Please allow a few days ... P.S Did you have a White Christmas in St. Petersburg? In Bavaria, we didn't ... m

27th December 2011, 11:15 PM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	I'm facing some serious difficulties finding the correct mansuscript title and accessing it for more information. Could you help me, my friend? m

27th December 2011, 11:59 PM	#9
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	The problem is: on their web site, no enters seem to be accepted ... How did you find it?

28th December 2011, 12:41 AM	#10
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	Wow, that's quite something, like a primer on siege warfare, making gunpowder, various kinds of firearms, incendiary weapons, petards, scaling ladders, etc. etc. plus some pages I can't connect with the other subjects. One is a woman washing another woman's hair, I think. What I can't figure out is where this has been throughout history until, what, 1950? I'll have to check "Quellen zur Geschichte der Feuerwaffen" as some of the devices look somewhat familiar. But "Quellen..." dates from late 19th C., well before this codex was generally known, I think? There's a very complex (for the time) twin-cylinder water-powered pulverizing mill shown, which I would not have thought would have been availabile at that time.

30th December 2011, 11:41 AM	#13
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	Susi, thanks! I often run into people who sincerely believe the lathe was not invented until about the 18th C if not later. This should shut them up. Did you see the illustation of the woman with the "earmuffs" hairdo doing something to another woman's hair (or something like that?) I'm not sure how that relates to military technology but if it is easy to read and you could find it easily, what does that one say? Each image takes a long time to load here, which is why it is impractical for me to find the number. Is there an index or thumbnal gallery of any kind with this codex?

30th December 2011, 04:26 PM	#15
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	Thanks Spiri. You must be familiar with the Museum of Artillery and Engineer Troops nearby. I love old artillery but was unaware of that great museum until I found the X???? website with many photos about 8 years ago. If you have photos that are different from those on the website, particularly any of the more elaborate items, I know they would be welcomed on this site. I missed a wonderful model that once belonged to Potemkin, had his coat of arms cast into the barrel and repeated in paint on each side of the carriage, at auction. I was "underbidder" sadly. It was antique, original, and in great condition. As I recall it was about 50 cm long, total. Here are some larger ones identical to the smaller one I was trying to get. http://www.stephenwoodresearch.com/port/pot01.htm

31st December 2011, 02:26 AM	#20
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	Maybe you missed it when Susi said the caption mentioned the turner was making torches. I assume those would be to illuminate when night work was required such as repairing battered walls, throwing up siege lines, etc. Wonder if those could also have been used as early portfires which provided the flame to ignite slowmatch or tinder for cannon and arquebus firing? Historians seem to be at somewhat of a loss for what means was used to keep live fires on the battlefield for that purpose.

31st December 2011, 08:56 AM	#21
Spiridonov Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Russia, Leningrad Posts: 355	What is the cones on the box? Is it possible that this cones is charges or wooden wads?

31st December 2011, 04:52 PM	#23
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	I think they are. m

3rd January 2012, 09:45 PM	#24
Spiridonov Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Russia, Leningrad Posts: 355	The most interesting images: http://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/en/zbz...3b/21v/x-large http://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/en/zbz...3b/35v/x-large http://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/en/zbz...3b/87r/x-large http://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/en/zbz...3b/89r/x-large http://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/en/zbz...b/113v/x-large Look at the last picture. There are something look like drill. Can somebody translate this? I would be great to translate all this titles

3rd January 2012, 10:15 PM	#25
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Alexander, On the quick I cannot decipher everything but I hope Swordfish can help a lot! 1. Der kunst macht wol gewissen, ... läuft man (?) gefahr verdorben pulver mag schiessen. Although you may be sure of your command of the art, the danger remains to fire foul powder. 2. Wie man blos machen soll, macht den dreier nicht wol?! 3. Die puchsen stain sint gut, der fy ...? The stone balls are of good quality, ...? 4. Der p? ist nicht verloren, wo du vil ? sollst machen? 5. Die gesellen mit der puchsen pehent schiessen wellen. The guys intend firing their guns properly. Swordfish, are you there? Best, Michael

3rd January 2012, 10:36 PM	#27
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	This one was translated by my Swiss e-penpal "Fidbald" who can actually read many of them: "If you want to walk on water you have to wear shoes." http://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/en/zbz...33b/68v/medium For quicker access to these, go to dropdown menu on top entitled "view" and select thumbnail or another of your choice, In the line of black rectangles, selecting smallest will cause much faster downloading.

3rd January 2012, 10:48 PM	#29
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	[QUOTE=cannonmn]This one was translated by my Swiss e-penpal "Fidbald" who can actually read many of them: "If you want to walk on water you have to wear shoes." That's right, John, The Medieval German text reads 'Wilst über wasser gan, leg dy (dir) schurh an'.