A Strange Discussion on Indian Weapons

Jens Nordlunde · 9th August 2005, 03:27 PM

Very nice, and well composed, pictures. A very good way to illustrate your point of view.

Of the katars I have, there are only two, which does not have a reinforced tip. Not that the reinforcement itself means that could, or was meant for piercing mails. Here is another one.

B.I · 9th August 2005, 04:15 PM

very nice jens. although not as excessive as your other example, this one also overstresses the thickened tip as if the weapon was being adapted for a purpose.
both you and aqtai has expressed that the thickened point 'could' have been used to penetrate armour and i think it good to stress this. at the end of the day, all we can do is speculate and it seems that a thickened point could well have been included for this purpose, given the style of armour in that time.
also, something that has been overlooked is that many spears also had this reinforced tip, as did (on rare occasion) a sword blade. again, we have to think why this was so and conclusions veer towards the armour piercing. not a debate that will ever be conclusive, but i am glad to be on a forum that listens politely to all opinions and happily agrees to disagree.

Mark · 9th August 2005, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B.I

again, we have to think why this was so and conclusions veer towards the armour piercing. not a debate that will ever be conclusive, but i am glad to be on a forum that listens politely to all opinions and happily agrees to disagree.

That is what makes it such a great forum!

It would be great if someone could locate a damaged piece of Indian armor. If it has a katar-sized hole punched in it, this would tend to show that regardless of whether or not the katar was designed to pierce mail, it was able to. On the other hand, if all that one sees in the way of armor damage is slashing damage, or piercing by larger dimension blades (how would one tell that, BTW, just to be my own Devil's Advocate?), that might be an indication that the katar was not used to pierce armor. Hm ... how would you tell the difference between a katar hole and a war-hammer spike hole? Its always such a challenge to reconstruct the past.

I recall some posts of contemporary paintings and/or sculpture showing battle scenes with katar. Perhaps they show whether or not the opponent was mailed. I will try and locate them.

Mark · 9th August 2005, 11:18 PM

This is all that I could find in the UBB archives. There is an illustration in one of the posts showing a man on horseback surrounded by attendents. He carries both a pata and a katar, and a few of the attendants carry katars in their belts (as well as various swords in their hands). No one is wearing armor, but the scene looks more like an afternoon ride in the country than a march to war.

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001837.html

B.I · 10th August 2005, 12:00 AM

hi mark,
there may well be images of the 'perfect' battle scene and we can hope that one can be found. it wont be conclusive, but will be nice to see. the image you mentioned was early 18thC (circa 1700) and examples can be found that date somewhat earlier. unfortunately, as the katar was a secondary weapon in battle, most miniatures show the katar sheathed.
the katar does appear in sculpture as well, but is harder to find due to the religious taint most sculpture lends to, but tamil nadu temples show it very clearly.
i have always felt that the evidence would lie in surviving examples and iconography can only back up what seems clearly evident. without actual pieces to study, the importance of iconography raises higher.

Jens Nordlunde · 13th August 2005, 03:25 PM

Somewhere in one of my books I read, that a silk shirt was often worn over the mail shirt, if that is so, we are not likely to find miniatures showing someone wearing a mail shirt, as those being painted were those how could afford to wear a silk shirt. On the other hand, we wont find anything if we don’t look.

A blade like the one shown has been made for a reason, and it is true that I can’t prove it was to pierce a mail, but it is the only logical use for a blade like that. Used against a man without a mail, it would go right through to the hilt, as the narrowest point on the blade is at the hilt, it would likely be jammed between two ribs, and be very difficult to get loose, not a situation one would like surrounded by enemies. Used against someone with a mail shirt, it would, if it penetrated the mail, maybe go halfway in and wound the man – or with a bit of luck kill him. Proof is a good thing to have, but unfortunately we don’t always have it when we want it, and sometimes we will never get it, then we will have to do with the old books and logic, although that is no exchuse to stop looking.

Aqtai · 13th August 2005, 03:53 PM

That is a beautiful katar Jens.

There is the kazaghand, a form of armour which consisted of mail shirt covered with silk. This type of armour was worn as early as the 12th century in the Middle-East (Salaheddin is supposed to have worn one), and continued to be worn by the Ottomans in the 16th century. I believe there were a few kazaghands in the Bikanir armoury as well. The only picture I have ever seen of one is on plate VIII of H. Russell Robinson's Oriental Armour.

That picture posted by Mark Bowditch of Sivaji comes from "Indian and Oriental Arms and Armour", by Lord Egerton of Tatton, published in 1896. The same book mentions how Sivaji went to meet the Afghan warlord Afdal Khan with a

Quote:

...steel chain cap and chain armour under his turban and cotton gown, concealed a a crooked dagger or "bichwa" in his right sleeve, and on the fingers of his left hand he fixed a "waghnak"... ...in the midst of the customary embrace, Sivaji struck the waghnak into the bowels of Afdal Khan... The Khan had drawn his sword and made a cut at Sivaji, but the concealed armour was proof against the blow.

The story has no real bearing on the current discussion, but I like it!

I am also embarrassed to admit that I live less than a half hour drive from Tatton hall, were presumably Lord Egerton's collection is housed, and I have never seen it

. I will go, one day.

9th August 2005, 03:27 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Very nice, and well composed, pictures. A very good way to illustrate your point of view. Of the katars I have, there are only two, which does not have a reinforced tip. Not that the reinforcement itself means that could, or was meant for piercing mails. Here is another one. Attached Images

13th August 2005, 03:25 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Somewhere in one of my books I read, that a silk shirt was often worn over the mail shirt, if that is so, we are not likely to find miniatures showing someone wearing a mail shirt, as those being painted were those how could afford to wear a silk shirt. On the other hand, we wont find anything if we don’t look. A blade like the one shown has been made for a reason, and it is true that I can’t prove it was to pierce a mail, but it is the only logical use for a blade like that. Used against a man without a mail, it would go right through to the hilt, as the narrowest point on the blade is at the hilt, it would likely be jammed between two ribs, and be very difficult to get loose, not a situation one would like surrounded by enemies. Used against someone with a mail shirt, it would, if it penetrated the mail, maybe go halfway in and wound the man – or with a bit of luck kill him. Proof is a good thing to have, but unfortunately we don’t always have it when we want it, and sometimes we will never get it, then we will have to do with the old books and logic, although that is no exchuse to stop looking. Attached Images Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 13th August 2005 at 03:38 PM.

9th August 2005, 04:15 PM	#2
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	very nice jens. although not as excessive as your other example, this one also overstresses the thickened tip as if the weapon was being adapted for a purpose. both you and aqtai has expressed that the thickened point 'could' have been used to penetrate armour and i think it good to stress this. at the end of the day, all we can do is speculate and it seems that a thickened point could well have been included for this purpose, given the style of armour in that time. also, something that has been overlooked is that many spears also had this reinforced tip, as did (on rare occasion) a sword blade. again, we have to think why this was so and conclusions veer towards the armour piercing. not a debate that will ever be conclusive, but i am glad to be on a forum that listens politely to all opinions and happily agrees to disagree.

9th August 2005, 11:18 PM	#4
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	This is all that I could find in the UBB archives. There is an illustration in one of the posts showing a man on horseback surrounded by attendents. He carries both a pata and a katar, and a few of the attendants carry katars in their belts (as well as various swords in their hands). No one is wearing armor, but the scene looks more like an afternoon ride in the country than a march to war. http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001837.html

10th August 2005, 12:00 AM	#5
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi mark, there may well be images of the 'perfect' battle scene and we can hope that one can be found. it wont be conclusive, but will be nice to see. the image you mentioned was early 18thC (circa 1700) and examples can be found that date somewhat earlier. unfortunately, as the katar was a secondary weapon in battle, most miniatures show the katar sheathed. the katar does appear in sculpture as well, but is harder to find due to the religious taint most sculpture lends to, but tamil nadu temples show it very clearly. i have always felt that the evidence would lie in surviving examples and iconography can only back up what seems clearly evident. without actual pieces to study, the importance of iconography raises higher.