Kattara for comments

[Jim McDougall]

I am inclined to agree that continuing this course with such obvious polarity in views concerning political issues in the history of these periods and regions would be counterproductive to the discussion of the kattara, the original topic of this thread. While I must admit the presentation of both sides here is most impressive and profound, it is in my opinion not particularly relevant to the study of the weapon itself. That too could of course be argued, but more well placed in debate venue.
Intriguing reading in any case gentlemen! Thank you.

Best,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I am inclined to agree that continuing this course with such obvious polarity in views concerning political issues in the history of these periods and regions would be counterproductive to the discussion of the kattara, the original topic of this thread. While I must admit the presentation of both sides here is most impressive and profound, it is in my opinion not particularly relevant to the study of the weapon itself. That too could of course be argued, but more well placed in debate venue.
Intriguing reading in any case gentlemen! Thank you.

Best,
Jim

Salaams Jim,
I would propose the following with which to bring this threads topic back on track: I wish to disprove a commonly held theory that Omani Kattara are European supposedly (though as far as I can deduce without proof) from the European Trade Blade concept. What is certain is that the Kattara appeared from somewhere and it is my suspicion they were developed closer to home.

My whole treatise on the Old Kattara forms a major part of this thread and a quick glance back through the details shows the conundrum ; The Old kattara (turned down quillons, Islamic Pommel, wing shaped blade) is from circa 8th C and appears at the start of Ibathi Islam as it is in the Funun; The accepted passage of tradition via music dance and mimicry. So why would Oman adopt a European blade in about the 17th / 18th C ? I find it hard to believe that a sword which was a virtual heraldic symbol, an icon of Ibathi Islam, ousted by a European Trade Blade. So my first doubt is a cultural one.

For Oman to take on a new system (and it can be seen that the new sword is quite different in many ways though similar in others) a whole mind shift would be needed in Nizwa as the governing body over the Ibathi structure. This weapon was to take the name Kattara and to absorb the Terrs buckler shield. It would need a completely fresh fighting approach as the long blade was spatula tipped and no good as a stabbing sword. It would change the Funun. My second doubt considers the religious and traditional mindset which a European trade blade contravenes.

It is difficult to see how a European sword could come into Oman via Muscat and then somehow be absorbed so that Nizwa then adopted it... The coast and the Interior were at constant running disagreement with each other. Whilst some trade may have taken place between the Interior and Coast the other routes by camel were to Mecca, Yemen, and the Gulf Coast via Buraimi Oasis and on up the line of mountains to Ras Al Khaimah etc etc. My third doubt is therefor socio-geographical.

I can find no swords with blades like the New Kattara outside of Oman...Yes there are blades which are similar in Ethiopia and Sudan but they are very different carrying distinct blade marks and without the same tang and pommel(blade tang and pommel made all as one) as the new Omani kattara.. If a new blade was sweeping through Africa would we not see evidence of it cropping up in Red Sea locations like Yemen, Saudia, Ethiopia and Sudan etc? Are we to believe that suddenly out of the blue a new kattara arrives; bang ! I do not buy that . We know that it appears in Zanzibar but that is likely to be because it was taken there by the Omanis who owned the territory. Doubt four is thus: No evidence of a transmission route overland via Africa or the Red Sea. No evidence of European swords being directly shipped to Oman.

I can find no proof that thousands of Kattara supposedly made in Europe were sent directly to Oman by ship. Some swords carry the running wolf stamp however these are fake stamps. Where were they stamped? Assuming that place of stamp = place of manufacture?

Not one Omani blade has a European sword factory stamp whereas masses of swords (Trade Blades) in Africa carry the correct German and European insignia and decorated blades. No Gurda. No European Factory Marks. What they do have marking the blades is the occasional "God Is Great" phrase or a Lion and/or crown mark ~ The Crown being generally attributed to what locals call Taj.. British India. So are these blades Indian or Sri Lankan? Therefor this doubt, number five, focusses on the absence of European factory marks but the inclusion of Islamic wording and some apparent British India Crowns and Lions.

Wootz blades would give clue to Indian blades. I have never seen a wootz blade in Oman though this forum has shown a couple which I believe are one-offs. Wootz is called Johar here and is not the style of blade in either dagger or sword. I therefor generally dont buy the India/Sri Lanka connection.

So we are looking for a sword maker closer to home who could produce perhaps a few hundred swords a year and who was on a camel trade route and who could knock out blades with suitable stamps (fake crowns, Lions, genuine religious chants) even as they do today.

My finger points to Ras Al Khaimah.

Regards,

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

Salam,

This sword I have for a while.. The blade looks like those used in Kattaras but the hilt is yemeni.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Salam,

This sword I have for a while.. The blade looks like those used in Kattaras but the hilt is yemeni.

Salaams, Nice sword. I would say a hybrid? Certainly a Yemeni Nimcha Hilt variant. The blade notwithstanding the blade marks which are not Omani (If blade marks were applied at the manufacture point then this may be an indicator of provenance) is of a wing shaped cross section whereas Kattara Omani are flat. I imagine this blade to be quite rigid. This looks like a one off... its a nice South Arabian sword all the same. Mabrook ! Ibrahiim.

[A.alnakkas]

Thanks Ibrahim, Allah yebarek feek.

The blade is not like the Kattaras I've seen, its rigid and thick at the ricasso. the blade is very sharp at the tip. The only similarity to Kattara blades is the spatula shaped tip?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams !

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Thanks Ibrahim, Allah yebarek feek.

The blade is not like the Kattaras I've seen, its rigid and thick at the ricasso. the blade is very sharp at the tip. The only similarity to Kattara blades is the spatula shaped tip?

Salaams A.alnakkas, Nice sword it is indeed ! I suspect the tip is reworked to round it off in more or less spatulate form but I reckon it was pointed originally. What do you think?
This in no detracts from the sword and the blade is very thick perhaps 3 times or 4 times thicker at the riccasso than the Omani style Kattara which I am about to try to show are not a European blades but made in Ras Al Khaimah (The Head of the Tents) I believe the rounded cross section or as I call them wing shaped much less flexible blade form is a Saudia variant quite different in feel and handling to the flat cross sectioned very, very flexible Omani Kattara which easily bends through 90 degrees and springs back to shape immediately.
Regards Ibrahiim.
(I am in China this week)

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams, Nice sword. I would say a hybrid? Certainly a Yemeni Nimcha Hilt variant. The blade notwithstanding the blade marks which are not Omani (If blade marks were applied at the manufacture point then this may be an indicator of provenance) is of a wing shaped cross section whereas Kattara Omani are flat. I imagine this blade to be quite rigid. This looks like a one off... its a nice South Arabian sword all the same. Mabrook ! Ibrahiim.

.....so what about these two? The kattara here has what you describe as a wing shaped cross section, ..............and what about the mark also on a kattara but not the one shown full length.?

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Ibrahiim for returning this thread to topic, and again it is a fascinating topic which truly needs to be discussed to learn more on the development of swords in these regions.
I need to review notes to readdress some points, for example that the adoption of European blades, and in many cases examples from India and the Caucusus occurred in the 17th century onwards is primarily..availability. It is all very much commercially rather than culturally oriented, and much as in the Sudan. The sword until relatively modern times remained the weapon of nobles and individuals of means and standing. As trade strengthened with exposure to wider scope of materials, particularly with colonial incursions, the inclusion of sword blades also increased. In the Saharan routes, Kano was oe key point of dispersal....in the Middle East, Damascus was a key hub, in India there were a number of these many on the Malabar Coast. In Arabia, it was of course Oman, and properly, Muscat. This was a point of contact where merchants traded and dispersed wares into East African and Red Sea trade, and of course the movement of these materials entered land routes.

As we have discussed, the interior of Oman, strictly Ibadi, carried on trade independantly via camel routes through regions not necessarily within the spheres of maritime trade, but still it would be impossible to consider that goods did not diffuse via route confluences at many points. The forms of 'traditional' kattara with downward quillons and the distinct mosque domed pommel would seem to have been maintained strictly within fundamental standards and not influenced nor refurbished with European blades in most cases I am aware of. I think that the ancestry of this form can likely be traced to early Abbasid forms, and remained in use traditionally into fairly modern times, contemporary with the coastal kattaras.

The coastal (Muscat) cylindrical hilted versions of kattara again, as discussed, seem to be largely mounted with trade blades, and the adoption of this distinct form seems to be keenly associated to the increased import of trade broadsword blades.
BTW, Stu, I believe the stamp on the blade you show in one from the Caucasian regions, and these are seen it seems usually on qama and other weapons produced in Transcaucasian regions. I believe it is known in Arabia as the number of blades brought into many regions were via Ottoman auspices and of course via Syria. I have seen numbers of Syrian hilt sabres with Hungarian blades misidentified as East European sabres with notably East European inscriptions.
The sword shown by A. Ainakkas is one of relative commanality and indeed of Yemeni type with it seems most of them being latter 19th into early 20th but often with refurbished older blades. The 'karabela' style hilt with subtle trilobate pommel is characteristic on a number of Yemeni, particularly Hadhramaut forms.

All best regards,
Jim

[TVV]

Sorry Ibrahim, the evidence is overwhelmingly in support of the use of trade blades on the longer, 18-19th century kattaras. If you go all the way back to the very first post in this thread you will see a kattara blade with a variety of markings - a termometer, eyelashes and crosses. All of those are quite common and can be traced back to well known earlier European examples.

Per Elgood, many of these blades were exported to Alexandria and Cairo, from where they were distributed throughout Arabia. If the Omanis were able to adopt the curved blade (most likely from Caucasian shashkas), then I do not see why they would not adopt the longer broadsword blade a century or so earlier, especially in light of the fact that German and Hungarian blades were very popular throughout the rest of the Arab Peninsula.

Personally, I think you put way too much stock in the cultural and religious barriers to the adoption of weapon forms, both in the case of the Omanis and the Portuguese. The hard evidence in the blades supports the theory that weapon forms diffused through trade, whereas your observations are so far entirely based on conjecture.

Regards,
Teodor

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

.....so what about these two? The kattara here has what you describe as a wing shaped cross section, ..............and what about the mark also on a kattara but not the one shown full length.?

Salaams,
Your point is respected in view of the cross section of the blade shown is wing shaped. For it to be Omani Kattara it needs to be tested at 90 degrees bend and released. It may be a hybrid. I have seen Saudi swords with this shaped blade. Could it be similar to the A Alnakkas blade? The second sword shown carries RAK Marks. I will continue on that sword at your next photo.

Regards Ibrahiim.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

.....so what about these two? The kattara here has what you describe as a wing shaped cross section, ..............and what about the mark also on a kattara but not the one shown full length.?

Salaams,
The straight Kattara style sword is possibly not Omani bladed since its blade is of a thick wing shaped cross section. Omani blades are flat in cross section thus allowing for great flexibility. The hilt, however, is in the Omani Kattara or the long Sayf style hilt style (both have the same hilt).

See other wing shaped straight blades on Michael Blalocks Arabian Swords#1. Illustrated in the Yemeni Military Museum and in the same post another thick wing blade from Riyadh souk. These could eminate from a Mamluke or a Saudia style. On the other hand it may be a one off. Bending the blade easily (whereafter the blade immediately springs back to shape) through 90 degrees would indicate an Omani Kattara. A stiff difficult to flex blade will indicate "Not Omani Kattara." However that is not to say it is not a Hybrid.

I have dealt with the marks on the other sword which is a Sayf(local terminology) that I believe is a RAK produced Omani weapon. The marks appear as star shapes or asterix and a peculiar tower shape with a moon inverted half way up the column. The Rak makers use this mark amongst many others and since it contains a moon shape is likely to be Islamic linked. (though it may even be a representation of a set of scales) At any rate both Moon and Stars are Islamic marks...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Regards,
Ibrahiim.

[laEspadaAncha]

Salaams Ibrahiim,

For my own (and possibly others') clarity, when you discuss "wing-shaped" swords or blades, are you speaking of a blade with a lenticular cross section, i.e., a double-edged, "flattened" oval?

Also, can you please elucidate in detail the blade profile of the Omani swords you believe to be of indigenous form and which you describe as being "flat" by comparison (with regards to presence of lack of distal taper, thickness, etc.)?

As a "math guy," I guess I am surprised I don't see more quantitative analysis of measurable parameters in the study of arms & armor, such as blade length, width, profile, as well as easily measures yes/no parameters (e.g., taper, distal taper, etc.). In fact, the only time I can recall seeing tables of data was in regards to a New Zealand study of Polynesian (or maybe pan-Oceanic) war clubs (I'm guessing there are probably more out there, but just not in my nascent library). It's the least subjective of expression of form, and I would think a proper statistical analysis of the respective blade forms would be the least interpretive way to test - or support - your theory.

Cheers,

Chris

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams,
The straight Kattara style sword is possibly not Omani bladed since its blade is of a thick wing shaped cross section. Omani blades are flat in cross section thus allowing for great flexibility. The hilt, however, is in the Omani Kattara or the long Sayf style hilt style (both have the same hilt).

See other wing shaped straight blades on Michael Blalocks Arabian Swords#1. Illustrated in the Yemeni Military Museum and in the same post another thick wing blade from Riyadh souk. These could eminate from a Mamluke or a Saudia style. On the other hand it may be a one off. Bending the blade easily (whereafter the blade immediately springs back to shape) through 90 degrees would indicate an Omani Kattara. A stiff difficult to flex blade will indicate "Not Omani Kattara." However that is not to say it is not a Hybrid.

I have dealt with the marks on the other sword which is a Sayf(local terminology) that I believe is a RAK produced Omani weapon. The marks appear as star shapes or asterix and a peculiar tower shape with a moon inverted half way up the column. The Rak makers use this mark amongst many others and since it contains a moon shape is likely to be Islamic linked. (though it may even be a representation of a set of scales) At any rate both Moon and Stars are Islamic marks...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Regards,
Ibrahiim.

OK this raises the question of the swords you advertise as Omani. Assuming your description is correct, then these ALL would have flexible blades??