Polish L-guard sword: restoration project

[Ypoznan]

Thank you for the welcome Fernando.
Oh! I know this forum (when it comes to topics concerning Navajas). It is extremely interesting. I think everything has already read, especially interesting statements colleague Chris Evans. The first time I came to you has just a year ago in search of information about Navajas - but I registered only today.
Thank you very much for your warm words about my site. I hope that you liked.

[broadaxe]

As far as I know, we cannot speak of true "cossack saber", as they were part of a larger area and have adopted the arms found wherever they were. I think our friend Wolviex can elaborate.
Janusz, great site. I wrote a short essay myself about the navaja, alas I'm afraid automatic translator do not work well with Hebrew... http://www.collect.co.il/content.aspx?id=187

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by broadaxe

As far as I know, we cannot speak of true "cossack saber", as they were part of a larger area and have adopted the arms found wherever they were. I think our friend Wolviex can elaborate.
Janusz, great site. I wrote a short essay myself about the navaja, alas I'm afraid automatic translator do not work well with Hebrew... http://www.collect.co.il/content.aspx?id=187

First of all, Janusz I would like to join in welcoming you to our forum! and thank you for the extra effort in communicating in English, which is greatly appreciated, outstanding job!
I wish of friend Wolviex was still posting here as he was a most valuable contributor and our key insight into Polish arms and armour. We have not seen him in some time and hopefully he will return.

Well made point by Broadaxe, it would be difficult to classify a particular weapon or style of weapon to any of the Cossack hosts, as typically they were amalgams of various ethnic groups and of course used weaponry as available. In the case of our discussion here, it seems of course that this sabre is likely as I earlier suggested, mid 17th century and probably of Polish-Lithuanian origin. The original question asked if the blade was Genoan, to which I noted this was unlikely and more probably a Styrian blade ( as best as I can see no suggestion of Lvov production).
The exacavations at Beretschko from the 1651 battle provided about 41 sabres, three of which I believe were this type. Obviously the Polish-Lithuanian types suggest use by probably both Polish forces and Zaporozhian.As this host was also largely comprised of expatriates from the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth it supports that these may well have been in Cossack hands as well.

Thank you again for joining us and very much look forward to your posts!

All best regards,
Jim

[Ypoznan]

Hello again. At the beginning I apologize for the delay in showing to my answer. Unfortunately, as a new member of the forum I have to wait until a moderator approves them. Surely you know these rules so please bear with me.

Overall, I thank you for your kind words on my part about Navajas. It's a lot to me. I'm very glad that you like.

@broadaxe
Very interesting article, congratulations. You can see that you put a lot of work into it.
I do not know how to translate from Hebrew to Polish is right but I saw some details that in the light of my knowledge may be controversial. Let me specify comments.

- Most supplementation of the date of creation is a breakthrough classic Navajas seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. However, in the development of Rafael Martinez de Peral y Forton "Las Navajas. Un Estudio y una Colección. "I found the information that in Mexico, already in 1590, in Pueblo de Los Angeles artist producing work Navajas. Cuchillero this came to the New World from Spain. This shows that even before this year in Spain acted Cuchilleros producing Navajas.
-Not all classic Navajas had bent handle, but actually it is a characteristic feature of these knives. There were many Navajas with straight handles, such as Navaja Marinera.
-Most Navajas, especially in the nineteenth century did not have a lock or lock type de piston or de Varilla - something similar to slipjoint. This was a consequence penal provisions. System "carraca" was popular but not universal.
- On the second picture is visible Navaja coming from France. Very characteristic for the Creators of Thiers. This is not a Spanish Navaja. On the third picture we see the French Navaja. Brand suggesting that comes with Zaragoza is false. Probably also comes with Thiers.

Very sorry if you misunderstood the content of your text. The translation is terrible. I hope you do not feel offended by my comments. Of course I do not consider myself an expert - I am only a hobbyist.

@Jim McDougall
I will try to post some more information about these types of sabers, and can picture (if I find), but please a little patience. For now, I do not see the preview of my message and they must be approved. How do I pass my probationary period to supplement the data. In the course of my ability.

Thank you for the warm welcome.
Janusz

[broadaxe]

Janusz, I'm not offended at all. My article was a side-effect caused by preparation for two seperate exhibitions, each held 2-3 navajas, and a demand from me to submit a simple article, not in-depth, for the general art-loving public. I had the opportunity to check the items in photos in person. Navajas are not my field of expertise nor a hobby, just a point of interest in the vast ocean of arms & armor. I hope to see posts from you regarding this field in other threads, let's keep this one with the Polish saber.

[Gavin Nugent]

Below is a stunning little 7" x 9" water colour in my collections.

I understand the artist is French and it is signed and dated from the start of the 19th century. Note the 'L' guard type sabre hung from the middle horseman.

The image is a little out of focus. When I have it returned from the gent who is conserving/cleaning it for me I'll try to show a little more detail on the sword.

I suspect at face value they are Polish or Lithuanian Tatars though I am sure artistic license abounds....feel free to correct my attribution.

Gav

[Ypoznan]

@broadaxe
Of course you're right. Let us return to the topic saber.

I would like to show you some pictures that show this type of sword. Photos come from the books and topics dealing with the Polish sword, therefore, are images that show has just Polish sabers. The information that I could find say that the sword such as used in both infantry and cavalry (hussars, even).

In the typology of penetrating marked influence each other and the formation of specific types of swords. In the middle window shows Polish uniforms (Polska), "Wschód" = east, "Zachód" = west.

Image is a replica saber hilt by Andrzej Mikiciuk. Drawings and typology of the books: Włodzimierz Kwaśniewicz "1000 słów o broni białej i uzbrojeniu ochronnym" (1000 words with melee weapons and protective armor) and Wojciech Zabłocki, "Cięcia prawdziwą szablą " (Cuts a real sword). Drawings showing the Polish infantry from the seventeenth century and the Polish nobleman found on the web.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much Janusz for the outstanding detail in illustrations, and especially for citing the sources, something too often overlooked in contributions. Extremely impressive reproduction example posted, and my compliments on your text, knowing you are using a translator I can appreciate the extra effort in the dramatic syntax improvement.

All very best regards,
Jim

[Ypoznan]

Hi Jim
I just hope that my text is at least partly understandable. Unfortunately, the same I can not check.

[broadaxe]

Here is an old thread, close to the subject: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=759
And from another forum: http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewto...er=asc&start=0

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewto...er=asc&start=0

[Ypoznan]

Szabla husarska (Hussar Saber) is without a doubt the queen of Polish sabers! Beautiful and highly functional. Besides an excellent weapon. But the most I like the final version, with the handle closed.
Great articles and texts. Thank you.

Ps. And if you liked my article about this sword? I'm curious opinion.

[Evgeny_K]

The first results of my work.

Pommel "before":

[Evgeny_K]

Pommel "after":

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Ypoznan

Hello.
This is my first post in this forum. At the beginning sincerely apologize for my English. I am a Pole, and unfortunately I only know the Polish language. For communication I use the electronic translator. Sorry for the mistakes and ask for your understanding.

I am not a specialist in melee weapons, but I had the opportunity to read about the sword in Polish studies. Sabre with pictures of fellow Evgeny K just seems to be of Polish origin. This suggests the construction of the blade and handle. In the seventeenth century, like sabers used also in Hungary, but they differ in structural details.

Wojciech Zabłocki In the book entitled "Cięcia prawdziwą szablą" (Cutting the true saber) sword that is classified as, a polish saber hilt model 1b. In Polish, this type handle is called a "półzamknięty" (semi-closed handle). Sabres have this type of simplified design, handles and perhaps accounted for (as suggested by the author of the book) earlier model (transition) to the most famous Polish saber - hussar saber (as determined by the author as a type 1a). There is also the view that this type of sabers were produced for the less wealthy warriors.

Polish origin saber does not exclude the use of it by the Cossacks. Especially that thousands of Cossacks to serve in the Polish army as "Kozacy rejestrowi" (Registered Cossacks). I've just limiting to the formation haul was one of the reasons Khmelnytsky Uprising. It is therefore very likely that they used it as both Poles and Cossacks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Registered_Cossacks

A few words of explanation. I am a hobbyist and am interested in mostly Spanish Navajas. Cold steel is outside the circle of my interests but once I wrote a short article about perhaps the most famous Polish saber - hussar saber - and then that I met with different types of Polish sabers. This article is posted on my website is in Polish but it is possible to automatically translate it into English. If you are interested is welcome.

http://www.navaja.pl/roznosci/76-szabla-husarska.html

Pozdrawiam serdecznie
Janusz

Salaams Ypoznan,

Hello and welcome to the Forum. What a superb website! you post at http://www.navaja.pl/roznosci/76-szabla-husarska.html

Here is all the information needed to begin looking at the replacement restoration hilt . Restoring the hilt following as exact a copy as possible or bringing up an old damaged hilt requires the same formula... "It should always be possible to return to the start point having caused no damage to the original piece" . Provided care is taken and that a basic programme of restoration steps is followed the weapon should be presentable at the end of the work and more or less indistinguishable from an original. Naturally, for those people who are not so handy with workshop practice the alternative is to leave it alone or have it done by an expert.
It is good to see the originator return to Forum where our enthusiasm, leadership and knowledge can assist and promote all aspects therein..through open discussion; always..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Janusz, I have been entirely remiss in not revisiting this thread and I just viewed your attached article....entirely excellent!!!! Thank you so much for posting this and also for sharing the outstanding work you are doing in restoring this sabre.
As Ibrahiim has expertly noted, it is a delicate task, but of such profound importance to carefull restore these weapons so they can be preserved properly. I very much agree that keeping your progress updated will be greatly appreciated.
The history of the Polish Winged Hussars has always been a personal favorite for me, and I know many here who are also deeply intrigued by the colorful history of the Polish cavalry. We have long been aware of the key influences of the weaponry and style they have had on the development of cavalry in the west, and always look forward to learning more. Your work is truly an inspiration !

All very best regards,
Jim

[Ypoznan]

Cześć

I'm sorry that I wrote not so long. I was very busy working on my site and noticed no response.

Ibrahiim and Jim.
Thank you very much for your warm words about my article. I'm very glad that you liked it. Cold steel is my interest margin (as I wrote earlier), the most interested in knives, especially Spanish Navajas. Article about hussar saber was ... from the heart, so to speak. Sabre is inextricably linked with the history of my country and Poland seen as antagonistic in great esteem. Even more glad that you liked it. But I must admit that in this matter (cold steel) I am rather layman. Article about hussar saber is vague, details can be found in the links I have given the article. In any case, once again thank you very much.

Jim
Polish Winged Hussars are the subject of pride in my country. One of the most effective formations in the history of Polish military. In addition to looking beautiful. In Poland, almost every boy and man had heard of hussars, even if it is not interested in this temat. Around this formation accumulated many myths and controversies. Even the famous wings. Still not sure whether they really were used in battle. Not all hussars wore them. Some wore only one wing. Military historians and enthusiasts still argue. Images showing the hussars with two huge wings represent the formation of a time when its military power collapsed. She then served as a representative role. Unfortunately, the country was rapidly failing, and with it the hussars. In any case, at the time of its heyday it was certainly one of the best cavalry in this part of Europe (if not in all Europe). Fast, agile, well-armed and trained with great tactics reigned supreme on the battlefields. Aroused fear among opponents. For the first 100 years (more than) its existence does not suffer any defeat. Later, it is true there have been its failure (rare), but they resulted from misuse or inability of the formation commanders. Only the Polish State crisis brought the twilight of this formation. Well, changing tactics and the conditions on the battlefields of course.

Returning to the topic thread. Hussars were using different types of swords, a Hungarian-Polish, hussar saber, other different types (for example, a semi-closed handles), and later karabela. The latter was undoubtedly the most popular sword of the Polish nobility. Acted as both a representative and combat. I plan to write well about karabela, but it is only in the future.

Pozdrawiam serdecznie (Best regards)
Janusz

[napoleon]

lovely old sword why not look for an original handle,it might take a while but maybe some one in the forum has such a thing ,cant hurt to ask regards napoleon

[Evgeny_K]

Originally Posted by napoleon

lovely old sword why not look for an original handle,it might take a while but maybe some one in the forum has such a thing ,cant hurt to ask regards napoleon

I think it's not real to find original grip for this sword, that will match the tang and crossguard.

restoration is in process
I will post some pics with the interim results of the work shortly

[Evgeny_K]

here are some pics

[Evgeny_K]

here are some pics

[ZEKIR]

Gentlemen,
Trying to establish whether the sabre is Polish or Ukrainian is a bit tough.

The type of blade and the handle is of Polish type but it could have been used by anyone within the Sarmathian culture. (Sarmathian Culture - I mean the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth of XVI-XIXc that Ukraine was a part of).

Big part of Cossacs were part of the State Register - which means they received money from The State to purchase a saddle, "uniform", guns, powder, tobacco, to support a horse etc.
Other Cossacs would be hired by big landlords and equipped in a uniform fashion, where the colors of their garments would be identical and the weapons would follow an identical design (made usually by one manufacture belonging to the landlord).

There were other cossacs as well who fought for expanding of the State Register. They were not a part of any state or private structure and wore any weapon that was in use in the region back then, which could have been Polish, Persian, Turkich, Indian, Georgian, German - whatever.
Plus! If not fo Cossacs, Austria would be a muslim country (Polish, Lithuanian forces saved Vienna in 1681) because nobody in the world did a better job fighting Turks. The natural consequence of the military escapades against Turks was an abundance of oriental artifacts (weapons included) all over Poland, Ukraine and Lithuania.

Generating a new brand of Ukrainian Sword is not so easy because the Sarmathian culture - uniting at that time Poles, Ukrainians, Lithuanians did not really vary from one region to another.
You could see that Hungarians were a bit different in their "practice" of Sarmathism. Even that is not apparent at the first glance.

It is a bit like trying to define an Austrian sub-type of blue jeans. Whatever we say Blue Jeans are American pants no matter who wears them.

Regards,
Zekir

P.S.
The sword is fantastic. It was an expensive artifact judging from the form of the blade. The weapons distributed by landlords to their cossacs are very practical but simple. This particular weapon belonged to a nobleman (Pole, Lithuanian, Hungarian or Ukrainian).

[Evgeny_K]

Thank you, Zekir!

Here are some pics of the blade after desalting and Dremel steel brush cleaning

[David]

I fear that your restoration approach with this blade may have been far too aggressive...

[fspic]

Originally Posted by David

I fear that your restoration approach with this blade may have been far too aggressive...

This blade may have been a lost cause before any work was done on it. The only thing that can be done is a chemical cleaning, filing smooth and then finding a way to fill in the pits with metal. I found a shop about five years ago which is willing to try spray welding of on this type of problem. This would be tried in very local areas first. A form of gas welding might work using certain alloys. However it would merely permit re-shaping the blade which would be a reconstruction more than a restoration. It would likely show the alloyed and filed areas as a separate color.

Coin silver has a relatively low melting point. Zinc is even lower. If you are really desperate and have the resources it might be possible to use these metals in sequence. Even an electroplate could be used to fill the final top layer of a filled blade. After finishing the blade would merely look "old and not maintained" instead of like a total disaster. The object is to merely restore the shape and appearance to make a more presentable wall display.

[Evgeny_K]

Originally Posted by David

I fear that your restoration approach with this blade may have been far too aggressive...

David, it's not "too agressive" )
Blade is heavily pitted. I've just deasalt it in the distillated water and clean it gently enough. Now I'm going to process it in the tannin solution (corrosion inhibitor).

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by fspic

This blade may have been a lost cause before any work was done on it. The only thing that can be done is a chemical cleaning, filing smooth and then finding a way to fill in the pits with metal. I found a shop about five years ago which is willing to try spray welding of on this type of problem. This would be tried in very local areas first. A form of gas welding might work using certain alloys. However it would merely permit re-shaping the blade which would be a reconstruction more than a restoration. It would likely show the alloyed and filed areas as a separate color.

Coin silver has a relatively low melting point. Zinc is even lower. If you are really desperate and have the resources it might be possible to use these metals in sequence. Even an electroplate could be used to fill the final top layer of a filled blade. After finishing the blade would merely look "old and not maintained" instead of like a total disaster. The object is to merely restore the shape and appearance to make a more presentable wall display.

Salaams fspic, Ypoznan, Evgeny_K et al~ The electroplating is maybe not a bad idea. What caused the damage? The Dremel or the desalting ?... It looks like it was sandblasted?? I must look up dremel ah ! Its the dreaded power tool in restoration... I think that may have done the damage. By the way has anyone ever done electrolysis on severely rusted blades? www.instructables.com has a couple of tips for this technique though I have to say with a blade as badly corroded as this was...it was never going to be easy. I would go for a few days in something mild like coke or lemon salt clean it off with soapy water and after drying get it covered in restoration wax.
Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[Evgeny_K]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams fspic Ypoznan et al~ The electroplating is maybe not a bad idea. What caused the damage? The Dremel or the desalting ?... It looks like it was sandblasted?? I must look up dremel ah ! Its the dreaded power tool in restoration... I think that may have done the damage. By the way has anyone ever done electrolysis on severely rusted blades? www.instructable.com has a couple of tips for this technique though I have to say with a blade as badly corroded as this was...it was never going to be easy. I would go for a few days in something mild like coke or lemon salt clean it off with soapy water and after drying get it covered in restoration wax.
Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Hello Ibrahiim,
Blade was already damaged because saber was dug up.
Desaltination is a necessary procedure to prevent further corrosion of the metal.
I've just removed with dremel brush mellowed rust from the surface of the blade.
Deep caverns already were on the blade when I get it into my hands.

[David]

I am not sure that there is ever a time when it is a good idea to go at an old blade with a steel brush on a dremel. I am not opposed to restoration of old blades, but in my view the least invasive approach is generally that best one. My own viewpoint is a bit different from fspic as i believe that for me the object is not to merely create a more attractive wall hanging. Some of these old blades we collect are irreplaceable pieces of history. In my own collecting experience i therefore believe that i have a certain obligation to preserve this history for study and a better understanding of our past. I am not opposed to cleaning up old blades and fittings to give them the appearance that they once had at the height of their use, but i think that with a blade such as this where the corrosion has reached a certain level, the best thing we can do is to stabilize the blade so that no further damage takes place.

[fspic]

Originally Posted by David

"... Some of these old blades we collect are irreplaceable pieces of history. In my own collecting experience i therefore believe that I have a certain obligation to preserve this history for study and a better understanding of our past. I am not opposed to cleaning up old blades and fittings to give them the appearance that they once had at the height of their use, but i think that with a blade such as this where the corrosion has reached a certain level, the best thing we can do is to stabilize the blade so that no further damage takes place.

Well, how restoring doing one side of the blade so it has a representative appearance and leaving the other side as is? At least it cuts work in half. I wouldn't do that with a genuinely historical blade which has a connection with an older historical incident such as an assassination and a resulting uprising.

[David]

Originally Posted by fspic

Well, how restoring doing one side of the blade so it has a representative appearance and leaving the other side as is? At least it cuts work in half. I wouldn't do that with a genuinely historical blade which has a connection with an older historical incident such as an assassination and a resulting uprising.

Well this is not something i would personally consider. If a blade warrants restoration and can actually be restored (i am not sure there was ever really a shot with this one) then i will either attempt it or not. I see no purpose in restoring half a blade. If restoration cannot be done without damaging the blade then it is not restoration is it, and i see no purpose in damaging a blade in order to make it shinier or prettier for display purposes. As for historical value the trouble is that unless you were there, have undeniable provenance or have a time machine it's impossible to tell exactly what the historical importance is of any blade. Maybe it killed many of the original owners enemies. Maybe it was never even drawn from it's sheath for that purpose. And for me even the personal history of a lowly warrior of seemingly little consequence is "important" in my eye. It doesn't matter if it's actions started revolutions or merely fought in insignificant battles that led to nothing. History is history is history and everyone's part in it collectively is what has led to our present.
We all collect for different reasons and all of them are valid. Some swords can be eye candy for proud display, but it it not what directs me to collect them.