North Afrika Sword ?

chregu · 20th September 2011, 01:53 PM

hello together
desert-like sword from where it originates.
regards Chregu

fernando · 20th September 2011, 03:02 PM

what could be wrong?
send us the pictures.
fernando@vickingsword.com

Gavin Nugent · 20th September 2011, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

what could be wrong?
send us the pictures.
fernando@vickingsword.com

Typo Fernando.....vicking....

chregu · 21st September 2011, 07:49 PM

so now it has worked with the photo.
how could this sword come from?
many thanks for the help
gruss Chregu

Iain · 21st September 2011, 08:00 PM

Oman and it's old. Ibrahiim I'm sure will be able to explain a lot better.

Is that a design etched on the blade? A closeup of that and the hilt would be helpful, also the patterns on the scabbard.

Gavin Nugent · 22nd September 2011, 02:52 AM

Congrats on a very nice find. There are some very good discussions about these if you spend some time trawling through the acrhives with the search function.
Good detailed photos may tell more of a story about this one though as Iain had indicated.

kahnjar1 · 22nd September 2011, 06:11 AM

ENVY ENVY

Yes Oman and as has already been stated quite old.

Martin Lubojacky · 22nd September 2011, 09:02 AM

Congratulations - if this sword is yours. This should really be old type/shape and it looks it is "in good health"

CharlesS · 22nd September 2011, 02:16 PM

Nice piece, and complete!

Would it be correct, technically, to call this an early kattara?

Iain · 4th October 2011, 02:30 PM

A pity this thread didn't receive more attention.

Where you ever able to make more photographs Chregu?

Jim McDougall · 4th October 2011, 07:18 PM

Hi Chregu,
I must apologize for lack of attention to your posting of this type sword, which a number of years ago would have brought a hornets nest of activity. I have anxiously been hoping that Ibrahiim, our resident authority on these swords from Oman, would respond. He has completed a great deal of considerably thorough research, coupled with the fact that he is situated in Oman.
I will add what I can recall from our discussions and try to describe more on this extremely desirable sword from Oman that you have posted.

In Robert Elgood's "Arms and Armour of Arabia" (p.17, fig. 2.13 and 2.15) he illustrates and describes these curious and ancient looking swords from Oman with the suggestion that they may be a proto-kattara (these being the long blade broadswords with cylindrical hilt).

Apparantly as revealed in fascinating discussions with Ibrahiim held here last May, these downward quilloned swords are from the interior of Oman, situated around the capital of Nizwa, and are of a form extant for many centuries. These seem to have evolved from earlier Abbasid battle swords from about 8-9th centuries, and remained in use by the tribes in the interior who are primarily followers of the Ibadi sect of Islam. It appears that the coastal regions of Oman, known as Muscat, is where the other form of kattara developed with the maritime trade and mercants there.

With constant conflict between the Ibadi tribes of the interior and the quite separate religiously and culturally Muscat coastal regions, the schism resulted in virtually two disconnected parts to Oman. With this, these traditional form swords stood in use concurrently with the more famliar cylindrical hilted kattara typically carried by the merchants of Muscat and becoming well known from coastal trade ports into Africa and Omans Zanzibar Sultanate.

Examples of this type also seen in "Arms and Armour of the Muslim Knight" (p.79, #43) where the form is generally regarded as 17th-18th century, but certainly remained in use much later, probably even into 20th century. Again, these would be considered an Omani sa'if in the sense that it is from Oman, but separate in form from the distinctive and familiar cylindrical hilted 'kattara' well known throughout Arabian trade routes.

I hope this helps, and hopefully Ibrahiim will come in and better detail my admittedly rough explanation.

All best regards,
Jim

chregu · 5th October 2011, 07:01 PM

hello together
Thanks for all your information. the sword is not mine, so I've added no additional images. Unfortunately. have asked for more pictures, especially for close-ups.
as soon as I get what I'll include it.
Thanks for your help

chregu · 11th October 2011, 09:57 PM

hello together
have received new and good photos. even if it be desired mer is a lot more!
Yours sincerely Chregu

fernando · 12th October 2011, 09:32 AM

Good pictures Chregu.
Does this sword belong to some collector friend of yours?
Why doesn't he join us?

Iain · 14th October 2011, 10:12 AM

I'm also interested to know this, as I'm a little hesitant to keep commenting on the sword without knowing who the owner is or status of the piece.

Jim McDougall · 14th October 2011, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain

I'm also interested to know this, as I'm a little hesitant to keep commenting on the sword without knowing who the owner is or status of the piece.

Good question Iain, it seems that it has become a fairly regular practice for members to present weapons from friends, relatives or whatever . Do these people not have computers, or is it simply they are too timid to join us (we cant possibly be that intimidating

At least the tired old saw of 'I just inherited this' or found this in an attic, wall etc. has subsided (in our forum at least).

By the number of hits on a thread compared to the responses (numbers like 100 or even many hundreds to one) it can be seen there are literally huge numbers of those lurking, but not contributing or commenting. I would imagine there is considerable material or examples out there which is not presented due to shy and timid lurkers who apparantly do not have friends among members who can boldly present thier weapons for them.
What a pity.

The very reason I research and post the material I do is in hopes it might be read and of some value to the weapon holder. The typical responses indicate that such validity is difficult to express by third party.

fernando · 14th October 2011, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... I would imagine there is considerable material or examples out there which is not presented due to shy and timid lurkers who apparantly do not have friends among members who can boldly present thier weapons for them.
What a pity.

Jim McDougall · 14th October 2011, 05:51 PM

TVV · 14th October 2011, 05:54 PM

Jim,

I can only speak for myself, but when I post items of friends it is usually because those friends have asked me to do it. The reson they do not register and post themselves is because they speak little English and would have a hard time expressing themselves by using an on-line translator. It is the same reason I am not registered on any of the Russian language forums: while I can read Russian easily, I am not fluent in it and I'd rather have someone more proficient in this language post for me when I have a question on an item.

Sorry for the off topic, but I just wanted to provide a perspective on language barriers.

Back to the Omani sword: thank you chregu for posting this, it is a beautiful sword. I wonder what caused the repair at the tip?

Regards,
Teodor

fernando · 14th October 2011, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

... Sorry for the off topic, but I just wanted to provide a perspective on language barriers...

Perhaps you are missing the point, Teodor

.
The actual question being, helping a friend with language difficulties, is a legitimate, constructive and welcome behaviour

.

Jim McDougall · 15th October 2011, 12:07 AM

Thanks very much Teodor, and clearly I had forgotten about the language barrier. I am of course very grateful to see anything posted here as it gives us the opportunity to view and discuss many items which we might not otherwise see. I suppose my point of contention was the many lurking who simply do not participate even to ask questions, the bit about not knowing enough is not really a good reason to not ask questions.
To me its about quid pro quo, and I learn a lot from what is posted here so like to open what books I have to share what else I can.
Naturally, I commend you for helping those with language restrictions, and applaud those who write here with such barriers and boldly write using translators.

All the best,
Jim

chregu · 15th October 2011, 08:12 PM

hello together
I make no secret of who is the sword.
I was asked in a German forum for advice.
The sword belonged to his father. whether it was or not, I can not check!
I was asked to help, so I offered my help.
If more pictures are desired, the owner will let me get even more.
Thanks for your help.

Iain · 17th October 2011, 09:57 AM

Hi Chegru, thanks for clearing that up. :-)

I can't offer much more information, but you may find this thread good reading:
http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...hlight=kattara

Some similar swords can be seen on the last two pages of that thread.

They are certainly an interesting type with fairly strong evidence that the basic design dates back into the early days of Islam. How to date each specific example is of course much harder as the type obviously remained popular for more than a few centuries. It would seem a longer type of kattara, based around European trade blades gradually replaced the short sword.
All the best,

Iain

20th September 2011, 01:53 PM	#1
chregu Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: switzerland Posts: 298	North Afrika Sword ? hello together desert-like sword from where it originates. regards Chregu Last edited by chregu; 20th September 2011 at 01:55 PM. Reason: pikture not works

11th October 2011, 09:57 PM	#13
chregu Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: switzerland Posts: 298	new pictures hello together have received new and good photos. even if it be desired mer is a lot more! Yours sincerely Chregu Attached Images

20th September 2011, 03:02 PM	#2
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	what could be wrong? send us the pictures. fernando@vickingsword.com

21st September 2011, 07:49 PM	#4
chregu Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: switzerland Posts: 298	Pictures so now it has worked with the photo. how could this sword come from? many thanks for the help gruss Chregu Attached Images

21st September 2011, 08:00 PM	#5
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Oman and it's old. Ibrahiim I'm sure will be able to explain a lot better. Is that a design etched on the blade? A closeup of that and the hilt would be helpful, also the patterns on the scabbard.

22nd September 2011, 02:52 AM	#6
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Congrats on a very nice find. There are some very good discussions about these if you spend some time trawling through the acrhives with the search function. Good detailed photos may tell more of a story about this one though as Iain had indicated.

22nd September 2011, 06:11 AM	#7
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,731	ENVY ENVY Yes Oman and as has already been stated quite old.

22nd September 2011, 09:02 AM	#8
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Congratulations - if this sword is yours. This should really be old type/shape and it looks it is "in good health"

22nd September 2011, 02:16 PM	#9
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,855	Nice piece, and complete! Would it be correct, technically, to call this an early kattara?

4th October 2011, 02:30 PM	#10
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	A pity this thread didn't receive more attention. Where you ever able to make more photographs Chregu?

4th October 2011, 07:18 PM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,898	Hi Chregu, I must apologize for lack of attention to your posting of this type sword, which a number of years ago would have brought a hornets nest of activity. I have anxiously been hoping that Ibrahiim, our resident authority on these swords from Oman, would respond. He has completed a great deal of considerably thorough research, coupled with the fact that he is situated in Oman. I will add what I can recall from our discussions and try to describe more on this extremely desirable sword from Oman that you have posted. In Robert Elgood's "Arms and Armour of Arabia" (p.17, fig. 2.13 and 2.15) he illustrates and describes these curious and ancient looking swords from Oman with the suggestion that they may be a proto-kattara (these being the long blade broadswords with cylindrical hilt). Apparantly as revealed in fascinating discussions with Ibrahiim held here last May, these downward quilloned swords are from the interior of Oman, situated around the capital of Nizwa, and are of a form extant for many centuries. These seem to have evolved from earlier Abbasid battle swords from about 8-9th centuries, and remained in use by the tribes in the interior who are primarily followers of the Ibadi sect of Islam. It appears that the coastal regions of Oman, known as Muscat, is where the other form of kattara developed with the maritime trade and mercants there. With constant conflict between the Ibadi tribes of the interior and the quite separate religiously and culturally Muscat coastal regions, the schism resulted in virtually two disconnected parts to Oman. With this, these traditional form swords stood in use concurrently with the more famliar cylindrical hilted kattara typically carried by the merchants of Muscat and becoming well known from coastal trade ports into Africa and Omans Zanzibar Sultanate. Examples of this type also seen in "Arms and Armour of the Muslim Knight" (p.79, #43) where the form is generally regarded as 17th-18th century, but certainly remained in use much later, probably even into 20th century. Again, these would be considered an Omani sa'if in the sense that it is from Oman, but separate in form from the distinctive and familiar cylindrical hilted 'kattara' well known throughout Arabian trade routes. I hope this helps, and hopefully Ibrahiim will come in and better detail my admittedly rough explanation. All best regards, Jim

5th October 2011, 07:01 PM	#12
chregu Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: switzerland Posts: 298	hello together Thanks for all your information. the sword is not mine, so I've added no additional images. Unfortunately. have asked for more pictures, especially for close-ups. as soon as I get what I'll include it. Thanks for your help

12th October 2011, 09:32 AM	#14
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Good pictures Chregu. Does this sword belong to some collector friend of yours? Why doesn't he join us?

14th October 2011, 10:12 AM	#15
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	I'm also interested to know this, as I'm a little hesitant to keep commenting on the sword without knowing who the owner is or status of the piece.

14th October 2011, 05:51 PM	#18
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,898

14th October 2011, 05:54 PM	#19
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,616	Jim, I can only speak for myself, but when I post items of friends it is usually because those friends have asked me to do it. The reson they do not register and post themselves is because they speak little English and would have a hard time expressing themselves by using an on-line translator. It is the same reason I am not registered on any of the Russian language forums: while I can read Russian easily, I am not fluent in it and I'd rather have someone more proficient in this language post for me when I have a question on an item. Sorry for the off topic, but I just wanted to provide a perspective on language barriers. Back to the Omani sword: thank you chregu for posting this, it is a beautiful sword. I wonder what caused the repair at the tip? Regards, Teodor

15th October 2011, 12:07 AM	#21
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,898	Thanks very much Teodor, and clearly I had forgotten about the language barrier. I am of course very grateful to see anything posted here as it gives us the opportunity to view and discuss many items which we might not otherwise see. I suppose my point of contention was the many lurking who simply do not participate even to ask questions, the bit about not knowing enough is not really a good reason to not ask questions. To me its about quid pro quo, and I learn a lot from what is posted here so like to open what books I have to share what else I can. Naturally, I commend you for helping those with language restrictions, and applaud those who write here with such barriers and boldly write using translators. All the best, Jim

15th October 2011, 08:12 PM	#22
chregu Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: switzerland Posts: 298	hello together I make no secret of who is the sword. I was asked in a German forum for advice. The sword belonged to his father. whether it was or not, I can not check! I was asked to help, so I offered my help. If more pictures are desired, the owner will let me get even more. Thanks for your help.

17th October 2011, 09:57 AM	#23
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Hi Chegru, thanks for clearing that up. :-) I can't offer much more information, but you may find this thread good reading: http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...hlight=kattara Some similar swords can be seen on the last two pages of that thread. They are certainly an interesting type with fairly strong evidence that the basic design dates back into the early days of Islam. How to date each specific example is of course much harder as the type obviously remained popular for more than a few centuries. It would seem a longer type of kattara, based around European trade blades gradually replaced the short sword. All the best, Iain