A possible Schiavona ancestor

[fernando]

Arriving end next week.
Said to date from the second half XVI century.
The basket guard resembles those of Schiavonas, giving basis to the assumption that this sword is a primitive example of such swords.
The nice sturdy pommel is however from a different school, although certainly belonging to the original setup.
The blade tip is broken, probably only for a short length, despite the fuller appears to finish at the present end. Although not so commonly seen, blades may sometimes have full length fullers. Besides, this one (blade) still has a length of 84 cms. (over 33"), longer than 'current' schiavonas, i would say. I will check better on this issue when the sword arrives.
However the more significant 'handycap', which surely influenced this sword's price, is a fissure in one side of the blade near the forte. I expect it hasn't significantly debilitated the blade's consistency. Anyhow i don't intend to practice fencing with it, and when i see it with naked eyes i may conclude that such crack was no more than the ideal accident to put its price on a 'decent' level.
Your guys coments will be so much appreciated, be them either optimist or pessimist; just hit me hard, have no mercy
I must advance that i have previously seeked backstage advice with our internal consultant Jim McDougall and Schiavona passionate Nathan Robinson from myArmoury, for whom both my recognition is addressed.

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[fernando]

Ah, something i forgot !
My kingdom to those who can tell (or guess) the provenance of this sword; Central Europe ... Germany, Italy?

[Zwielicht]

I'd guess that it is Italy - the guard, as I understand, has a different build than German or landsknecht swords, but reminds closely that of a classic schiavona.

Also, what could happen with a tip of a blade? It seems to be cut or broken.

[fernando]

Thanks for your coments, Zwielicht.
I am waiting for the sword to have a closer look to both blade crack and the tip; i guess the tip was broken by accident and not cut for shortening.

[Matchlock]

Hi 'Nando,

My expert friend Ottmar says this was a North Italian variation of a very late schiavona type composed with a pommel of unusual shape, most probably put together in an arsenal for infantry armament in ca. the 1630's-40's.

Best,
Michl

[fernando]

Thank you so much Michl,
Also thank your friend Ottmar.
I aknowledge and will register those coments in the sword computer folder.

[Matchlock]

Ay, my friend,

None of us is perfect but united we can try and achieve the best possible results - I guess that's mainly why we are a community of forum members! And I sure am proud as a peacock of being part of it!!!

Good night from a rainy and cold Bavaria,
Michl

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Fernando,
Will you be getting a 'display stand' like this for your Schiavona?
My Regards,
Norman.

[fernando]

Hi Norman,
We don't have this type of stands in local stores. Can you organize one and send it over ?
... I'll pay you in kind

[Matchlock]

Oh come on, 'Nando,

I remember some fine stands you made - you could easily build Norman's!

Best,
Michl

[fernando]

It's not a question of putting one up, Michl, but that of a certain difficulty in acquiring the right raw materials .

[Matchlock]

Brilliant!!!! I'm afraid though I can't help you out either.

[fernando]

The sword has arrived.
No point in posting more pictures as, the ones already posted, copied from the seller's website, are rather good and faithful and i could do no better.
The point of balance is quite close to the hilt (4 cms.), naturaly due to both the intricate iron basket and (beautiful) pommel weight.
The fissure (crack) on the blade is not dramatic; is more uncomfortable to the eyes than to actual debilitation potential.
Nevertheless, i will conveniently adopt the term "old warrior" for this piece. Two of the hilt branch ends are loose, although the whole guard setup still feels rather solid. It also looks as if the blade was subject to a straightening process.
On the other hand, a sword of this category, in prime condition, would cost two to three times as much, an horizon i can't reach.
But overall it looks like a great piece, with its large slice of mystic.
Now, i would like to ask you guys for an opinion:
The problem is that i am not managing to digest the looks of that broken tip.
Bearing in mind that:
1 - The blade presently measures 84,5 cms (33") to the crossguard, or 80,5cms (32") to the hilt.
2 - Its fuller just about ends slightly before the broken tip end.
3 - Unless compared with a similar (equal) sword example is hard to know the length of the missingh part; some two inches ?
Question:
Would you try and reshape its tip?
... More pointy, more gothic, more round ?
Or should i just leave it as it is and get accomodated with time coming ?
Thanks for your cooperation.

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[Iain]

Very nice sword, I've been admiring the pictures over the last couple days. I just wanted to quickly jump in to say, leave the tip as is!

I usually go through a process with almost every new purchase where I find something "wrong" and obsess about it for a few weeks. Then I stop noticing it over time.

I think trying to "fix" antiques is a slippery slope and re profiling the tip will just lead to the lose of material and disturbing a rather well developed patina.

Looks great to me as it is.

[kai]

Hello Fernando,

I'm with Iain here - at least wait for a while before deciding on any work.

Unless you contemplate to bring the whole blade to new polish and accept to reprofile the blade for a considerable part of its length (and then the hilt will most likely look off and possibly the blade crack worse), any local changes to the tip will probably make it look fake rather than better, I guess...

Regards,
Kai

[fernando]

Thanks a lot, Iain and Kai, for the wise words.
I am particulary glad that you like this sword, Iain.
Yes, i am going to give it some time, expecting this initial hysteria to vanish and the tip detail stops jumping into my eyes.
I hope she feels fine close to her hosts.

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[cornelistromp]

Hi Fernando,

beautiful and rare sword, even with a broken point, congratulations!
it is not necessarily of Italian (Venetian?) origin.
you can see the hilt bar design similarities with the German basket hilted riding swords around mid 16thC , H and J.(Oakeshott attachment)
I personally would place the sword in the German direction and around 1540.

If you have an authentic blade point, you could consider a "justifiable" restoration.

I myself am a supporter to leave authentic weapons as much as possible untouched.

a fracture in the hilt , a grip, a broken blade can be restored, in all cases patina must remain untouched.

best,

[fernando]

Ah Jasper, i was missing your knowledgeable and keen observations; i thank you so much for those and for the enlightening hilt illustrations.

Worthy of note is how your remarks do not significantly differ from those transmitted by Jim when i seeked his advice prior to this sword acquisition:

(QUOTE) Actually this would be considered a mid-European basket hilt sword with hilt of the form which evolved into the familiar schiavona type.
... but most prominantly this example seems mid European, probably German and may well be of the period specified (second half XVI century) if not slightly later. (END QUOTE).

Thanks again for your input, which i will register and save.

[Matchlock]

I, too, wish to express my opinion that the tip of the blade should be kept unaltered, and I agree with other members on preserving the good old patina.

Compliments on your nice display, 'Nando!

Best,
Michael

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

... Compliments on your nice display, 'Nando! ...

Tank you Michl,

[Iain]

I will second (or third) the comments about your display Fernando. It's always a true pleasure to see an old warrior in good company. A good display of swords in the same family gives invaluable visual information - size, characteristics (heavy, light, longer, shorter) suddenly all become clear.

Thanks for sharing!

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Iain

I will second (or third) the comments about your display Fernando. It's always a true pleasure to see an old warrior in good company. A good display of swords in the same family gives invaluable visual information - size, characteristics (heavy, light, longer, shorter) suddenly all become clear.

Thanks for sharing!

Thanks much for your impressions Iain.
Better than receiving such compliments is to know that you guys are pleased.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Ah Jasper, i was missing your knowledgeable and keen observations; i thank you so much for those and for the enlightening hilt illustrations.

Worthy of note is how your remarks do not significantly differ from those transmitted by Jim when i seeked his advice prior to this sword acquisition:

(QUOTE) Actually this would be considered a mid-European basket hilt sword with hilt of the form which evolved into the familiar schiavona type.
... but most prominantly this example seems mid European, probably German and may well be of the period specified (second half XVI century) if not slightly later. (END QUOTE).

Thanks again for your input, which i will register and save.

Thank you so much Nando!!!

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

Hi Fernando,

I personally would place the sword in the German direction and around 1540.

Hi Jasper,

Sorry but I have to differ from your dating.
If you take a close look at the hilts you will notice that Fernando's is quite different and much more developed, ca. 1630's, than the one on Oakeshott's drawing which indeed would be ca. 1550-60.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Hi 'Nando,

Would you be willing to post details of your longest rapier illustrated 2nd from bottom on your display?

It seems highly interesting indeed and I would sure let you know more about it! The blade should be of elliptic main section, with a reinforced tip ...

Best,
Michl

[fernando]

Hi Michl,
The blade is more diamond section (four faced) than elliptical and the tip is not reinforced.
We have discussed it HERE , remember?

[Matchlock]

Grrr, my old brain ...
Anyway, Ottmar didn't it read but he will now.

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Hi Jasper,

Sorry but I have to differ from your dating.
If you take a close look at the hilts you will notice that Fernando's is quite different and much more developed, ca. 1630's, than the one on Oakeshott's drawing which indeed would be ca. 1550-60.

Best,
Michael

Hi Michael,

sorry for my late response. I saw this post only now.
Oakeshott's sketches are only the front view without a counter guard, apart from that the basket disappeared at the end of the 16th century in Germany for this type of swords.( this type of basket)
I'm sorry but I must hold my date.

kind regards
Jasper

[fernando]

Thank for your new input, Jasper.
Now, sorry for my ignorance but, you would you say this is a cavalry sword or an infantry one ... or rather for civilian use?

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by fernando

Thank for your new input, Jasper.
Now, sorry for my ignorance but, you would you say this is a cavalry sword or an infantry one ... or rather for civilian use?

Hi Fernando,
This sword given it's blade length and combined with the full hand protection of a deep basket hilt is a very efficient sword that allowed both cut and thrust and therefor perfect for the heavy cavalry.