Junggayan Kris

Spunjer · 27th July 2005, 12:06 AM

wow! i wonder how much this kris went for:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1

was keeping an eye on this, till i got home and found out the seller ended the listing

nechesh · 27th July 2005, 12:49 AM

Something doesn't look right to me. This ensemble is very awkward looking. The hilt seems WAAAY to large for this blade. The pics are so bad that you really can't tell what you are looking at. Personally, i would stay away from it.

Ian · 27th July 2005, 12:50 AM

Hi Spunjer

That hilt is nice but not great IMO. Overall, this one does not seem to be of very high quality to warrant such a flamboyant hilt. You may have saved yourself an expensive purchase. Perhaps one of our fellow Forumites purchased it and will post better pictures.

Ian.

Spunjer · 27th July 2005, 03:43 AM

nechesh, now that you mentioned it, it does kinda look big, doesn't it? i was just reading the "questions from other members" and he stated that the blade is 18.5". i dunno; perhaps a junggayan for a prince?

i'm with you ian, i hope the buyer will post better pics. what kinda hilt do you think it is? it looks like it's made out of kamagong...

nechesh · 27th July 2005, 03:54 AM

What i was trying to say i guess is that to me this looks like a composite piece. I don't feel like this hilt is original to the blade, just slapped together to encourage sale. I could be wrong, but as i said, the pics are just too bad to tell anything for sure.

Bill · 27th July 2005, 05:56 AM

The pics are really hard to tell, my guess is that it is Tausug-mid to late 19thC. I wonder if the hilt is horn, maybe oiled? Short blade with junggayan hilt makes it look dispropotioned. If it is an older blade it seems to have better than usual file work. The hilt doesn't really show much wear, except the wrap in one place, from rubbing on something while stored?

Ian · 27th July 2005, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

what kinda hilt do you think it is? it looks like it's made out of kamagong...

Hi Ron:

I think wood rather than horn, but hard to say from the pictures. That would be a large piece of horn. A dark wood, like kumagong, would be my guess. Seems to have some age, judging from the pictures.

Ian.

Spunjer · 27th July 2005, 01:47 PM

seller said he erroneously listed the item (huh?). he did say the offer pass the 1000 dollar mark. prolly just trying to get a feel on how much he can get for it. appraisal, ebay style...

bill,
i was checking out the blade as well. the separation line on the gangya appears to be straight across, and basing on cato's book that would be, ah, old...

Spunjer · 27th July 2005, 01:56 PM

Quote:

I think wood rather than horn, but hard to say from the pictures. That would be a large piece of horn...

yup, that'd be a pretty big piece: 6" by 2.5". hard to judge the thickness, but it looks like it's around an inch and a half at the thickest part.
if he does decide to sell it again, he needs clearer photo, that's for sure.

Rick · 27th July 2005, 02:41 PM

When I see pieces like this I am reminded of an old postcard that has been posted here a few times ; it's a picture of a Moro trader's shop most likely in Zamboanga . In that photo is a rack of brand new krisses and barungs many of them with junggayan hilts (ivory and wood) for sale to the general public .
So when someone refers to a piece like this as datu or royal I remember that postcard and wonder.

Bill · 27th July 2005, 02:46 PM

Spunger, Agree that the straight gangya line means a really old blade; for the few really old blades I have the gangya is very narrow (this one is thick) & the file work is minimal on the guard side, as well, fully defined curves rather than waves. My guess is that the multi-waves didn't start untill late 18thC/early 19thC. My guess that this is mid 19thC or later is really because of the file work, but that may have been tweaked later. Still stick with the guess its horn because of the defined edges on it. & while I think its Tausug, I'll note that the Bugis did make thier own early files & horn was reserved for acts of bravery & awarded by ceremony.

Bill · 27th July 2005, 04:02 PM

Here's a old postcard marked "Weapons Borongs,Krisses and Campalan-554" in the background is what appears to be old (Chinese?) vases in some sort of shop. 4th one down is what Cato describes as 18thC. Sorry I couldn't get a better pic.

Spunjer · 27th July 2005, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Spunger, Agree that the straight gangya line means a really old blade; for the few really old blades I have the gangya is very narrow (this one is thick) & the file work is minimal on the guard side, as well, fully defined curves rather than waves. My guess is that the multi-waves didn't start untill late 18thC/early 19thC.

hi bill; thanks for that tidbit.
when you wrote "...its horn because of the defined edges on it", could you please elaborate on that one? reason being is, i have this one sword and i'm having a hard time determining whether its some type of wood or carabao horn, although the hand guard i'm pretty sure is carabao horn.

that postcard's pretty cool. wow, can't imagine how i would react if i walk in on an antique store like that. prolly like a cat stumbling on a catnip, lol. must be an antique shop in manila before wwII. funny thing is, those chinese vases are still popular in the antique shops over there...

Battara · 27th July 2005, 11:42 PM

In one of the questions posed by others, the seller said that the pommel was made of horn. I agree with the question of the piece in the waves and straight across ganga separation line (say that 5 times fast

) - either the blade is a fake - er - later with intent to fool, or it is an exception to the rule found in Cato's book. Horrible pictures.

One of our brethern was bidding on this puppy and it was at 81.00, and then was ended by the seller. Wonder why?

VANDOO · 28th July 2005, 12:50 AM

I AM ALWAYS SUSPECIOUS OF BAD PICTURES AND HIGH WORDS SUCH AS ROYAL, DATU, ANCIENT, ECT, WITH NO PROVENANCE OR GARANTEES. IT DOSEN'T HELP WHEN THE SELLER ENDS THE AUCTION EARLY WHEN IT SEEMS TO BE DOING WELL. THERE SEEMS TO BE A LOT MORE OF THE EARLY ENDING AUCTION DEAL LATELY. IT WAS A INTERESTING ITEM THOUGH FROM WHAT LITTLE I COULD SEE.

kai · 28th July 2005, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

seller said he erroneously listed the item (huh?). he did say the offer pass the 1000 dollar mark. prolly just trying to get a feel on how much he can get for it. appraisal, ebay style...

He promised to relist it (with better pics).

kai · 28th July 2005, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

I AM ALWAYS SUSPECIOUS OF BAD PICTURES AND HIGH WORDS SUCH AS ROYAL, DATU, ANCIENT, ECT, WITH NO PROVENANCE OR GARANTEES.

There seems to be some sort of provenance - it comes with a collection tag but the seller hasn't disclosed whom this "early century South Seas collection" belonged to... Caveat emptor, as usual.

kai · 28th July 2005, 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

Spunger, Agree that the straight gangya line means a really old blade; for the few really old blades I have the gangya is very narrow (this one is thick) & the file work is minimal on the guard side, as well, fully defined curves rather than waves.

Hi, Bill, could you please show us pics of these gangya? Pretty please...

Quote:

My guess is that the multi-waves didn't start untill late 18thC/early 19thC. My guess that this is mid 19thC or later is really because of the file work, but that may have been tweaked later.

FWIW, the curve below the elephant's jaw is fairly wide (circular) for a Sulu blade which might also hint at a later origin?

There is also a short incision between the upper end of the straight separation line and the regular wave pattern file work. Has anybody seen this feature before? (This somehow resembles the Bali-esque minmally curved separation line found in some 19c blades...)

BTW, I got better pics but can't post them here (forum rules, etc.).

Regards,
Kai

Ian · 28th July 2005, 04:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

He promised to relist it (with better pics).

If the seller has indicated this item is going to be relisted on eBay then Forum rules probably prohibit further discussion. This thread is being locked until the situation is clarified.

Ian.

27th July 2005, 12:06 AM	#1
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	Junggayan Kris wow! i wonder how much this kris went for: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1 was keeping an eye on this, till i got home and found out the seller ended the listing

27th July 2005, 04:02 PM	#12
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Here's a old postcard marked "Weapons Borongs,Krisses and Campalan-554" in the background is what appears to be old (Chinese?) vases in some sort of shop. 4th one down is what Cato describes as 18thC. Sorry I couldn't get a better pic. Attached Images

27th July 2005, 12:49 AM	#2
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Something doesn't look right to me. This ensemble is very awkward looking. The hilt seems WAAAY to large for this blade. The pics are so bad that you really can't tell what you are looking at. Personally, i would stay away from it.

27th July 2005, 12:50 AM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,198	Hi Spunjer That hilt is nice but not great IMO. Overall, this one does not seem to be of very high quality to warrant such a flamboyant hilt. You may have saved yourself an expensive purchase. Perhaps one of our fellow Forumites purchased it and will post better pictures. Ian.

27th July 2005, 03:43 AM	#4
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	nechesh, now that you mentioned it, it does kinda look big, doesn't it? i was just reading the "questions from other members" and he stated that the blade is 18.5". i dunno; perhaps a junggayan for a prince? i'm with you ian, i hope the buyer will post better pics. what kinda hilt do you think it is? it looks like it's made out of kamagong...

27th July 2005, 03:54 AM	#5
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	What i was trying to say i guess is that to me this looks like a composite piece. I don't feel like this hilt is original to the blade, just slapped together to encourage sale. I could be wrong, but as i said, the pics are just too bad to tell anything for sure.

27th July 2005, 05:56 AM	#6
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	The pics are really hard to tell, my guess is that it is Tausug-mid to late 19thC. I wonder if the hilt is horn, maybe oiled? Short blade with junggayan hilt makes it look dispropotioned. If it is an older blade it seems to have better than usual file work. The hilt doesn't really show much wear, except the wrap in one place, from rubbing on something while stored?

27th July 2005, 01:47 PM	#8
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	seller said he erroneously listed the item (huh?). he did say the offer pass the 1000 dollar mark. prolly just trying to get a feel on how much he can get for it. appraisal, ebay style... bill, i was checking out the blade as well. the separation line on the gangya appears to be straight across, and basing on cato's book that would be, ah, old...

27th July 2005, 02:41 PM	#10
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	When I see pieces like this I am reminded of an old postcard that has been posted here a few times ; it's a picture of a Moro trader's shop most likely in Zamboanga . In that photo is a rack of brand new krisses and barungs many of them with junggayan hilts (ivory and wood) for sale to the general public . So when someone refers to a piece like this as datu or royal I remember that postcard and wonder.

27th July 2005, 02:46 PM	#11
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Spunger, Agree that the straight gangya line means a really old blade; for the few really old blades I have the gangya is very narrow (this one is thick) & the file work is minimal on the guard side, as well, fully defined curves rather than waves. My guess is that the multi-waves didn't start untill late 18thC/early 19thC. My guess that this is mid 19thC or later is really because of the file work, but that may have been tweaked later. Still stick with the guess its horn because of the defined edges on it. & while I think its Tausug, I'll note that the Bugis did make thier own early files & horn was reserved for acts of bravery & awarded by ceremony.

27th July 2005, 11:42 PM	#14
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	In one of the questions posed by others, the seller said that the pommel was made of horn. I agree with the question of the piece in the waves and straight across ganga separation line (say that 5 times fast ) - either the blade is a fake - er - later with intent to fool, or it is an exception to the rule found in Cato's book. Horrible pictures. One of our brethern was bidding on this puppy and it was at 81.00, and then was ended by the seller. Wonder why?

28th July 2005, 12:50 AM	#15
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I AM ALWAYS SUSPECIOUS OF BAD PICTURES AND HIGH WORDS SUCH AS ROYAL, DATU, ANCIENT, ECT, WITH NO PROVENANCE OR GARANTEES. IT DOSEN'T HELP WHEN THE SELLER ENDS THE AUCTION EARLY WHEN IT SEEMS TO BE DOING WELL. THERE SEEMS TO BE A LOT MORE OF THE EARLY ENDING AUCTION DEAL LATELY. IT WAS A INTERESTING ITEM THOUGH FROM WHAT LITTLE I COULD SEE.