A south Indian katar

Gavin Nugent · 5th July 2011, 11:00 PM

Jens,

The hooded Katar you present, it seems to show the blade and decoration at the hilt junction as integral where many are hooded examples are blades sandwiched between decorative panels and riveted like the Katar you have shown at the start of the thread. Do you have the hooded piece in hand to offer any insight as to the securing of the blade to the hilt? I think Elgood only offered one of this type where the rest were riveted types as are my two.

With regards to the fish, I think they are entirely stylistic representations only, despite the 'gill arrangement only' being like the flathead. There is likely reference or suggestions within publications of early Indian art about the forms of these fish or Vishnu now sitting somewhere in the annals of time....
It is interesting to see the fish symbol grow each step of the way through the taper of the side bar and the presence of the beading throughout shows fantastic quality of workmanship.

With regards to the Katar initially posted, would you be kind enough to share an image or two of the designs on the inside of the hilt where the blade joins. The mound appears to have some wonderful iconography.

Gav

archer · 6th July 2011, 04:34 AM

I hate to swim against the current, but, flatfish start out as normal vertically swimming fish. As they mature and evolve one eye migrates around their heads
until they are both on the same side. Their colors evolve also much like military planes darker on top lighter on the bottom. To me, I see the smaller fish
as vertical. If the fish represent Vishnu perhaps these help to show his evolution. Steve

Gavin Nugent · 8th July 2011, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by archer

I hate to swim against the current, but, flatfish start out as normal vertically swimming fish. As they mature and evolve one eye migrates around their heads
until they are both on the same side. Their colors evolve also much like military planes darker on top lighter on the bottom. To me, I see the smaller fish
as vertical. If the fish represent Vishnu perhaps these help to show his evolution. Steve

No the case with all fish, whilst this is not a fishing forum, attached is a flat fish that stays flat....and there are plenty on the bite at the moment.

Gav

Jim McDougall · 10th July 2011, 08:02 AM

Actually it would seem the type of fish may be red herrings

. I am not sure whether the type of fish are pertinant as often the motif in material culture and of course weapons becomes stylized in representative allegory. As Jens has mentioned, beyond the Hindu representations of fish which I mentioned in what I wrote back in 2007 (Pandya) and the Matsya incarnation of Vishnu, the fish was indeed a dynastic symbol of the nawabs of Awadh (Oudh). In the attached illustration of the silver rupee of Awadh (c.1814-15)there is a stylized fish, which does not however, resemble the examples seen on this katar. Still, in the sense of stylization, the actual image chosen by the artisan is of course his choice and based on personal interpretation.

It remains interesting to note the various applications of the fish in symbolism, and thier auspicious meaning in different contexts. While the elements of this katar reflect characteristics of Tanjore katars, Elgood does note that Hindu designs in these katars did influence examples in Golconda/Hyderabad, and from there to Lucknow. Lucknow was the capital of Oudh, so although admittedly tenuous , it is tempting to consider the possibility of this katar being from these Mughal regions. The representation of architectural designs in Indian weapons is a topic worthy of considerably more discussion, and in the attached illustration of the winter diwan (assembly) of a Mughal nawab some interesting similarities to the hilts of some katars and the arches surrounding in the room are seen.

Just more observations to discuss further.

All best regards,
Jim

tom hyle · 10th July 2011, 12:53 PM

There is a vital similarity between the fish Jim has just shown us and the original fish (beautiful fish, BTW), and that is that both seem to mix side and top views in a perhaps proto-cubist manner (the European "modern" artists openly derived much of their ideation from foreign cultures). We see the tail as if from the side, looking relatively like a whale tail, compared to the side fins, shown as from above (top and bottom fins on a fish are not usually symmetrical like this), and likewise the barbels (catfish whiskers) on Jim's fish. This makes it harder to analyze whether putting both eyes on one side is bit of realism or of artistic convention. I haven't seen it done on art depicting land animals from India, I don't think. We would probably need more fish art from the region.
It's hard to see all the detail on my little screen, but at least one of Jens' larger fish clearly shows a mouth that runs sideways, kind of between the eyes (until I noticed this, I too thought these may be overhead views). Type of fish may be quite important; to seafaring and fishing peoples the differences between types of fish are as clear and vital as the differences between land animals. River fish or ocean fish? That might make a difference. Or for all I know they might just be fish.
Lovely fish.

Jens Nordlunde · 12th December 2016, 05:58 PM

Gav, looking at some old posts on South Indian katars I saw that I had never shown you the back of the katars, although you asked for a picture - sorry. Here it is.

mariusgmioc · 12th December 2016, 07:10 PM

Jens, please add me to the long list of people envying you!

Regarding the cleaning of the blade, the dull grey patination one gets after de-rusting (I get it quite often after using the Renaissance Metal De-Corroder) comes off nicely by wiping the blade with cotton swabs and Renaissance Pre-Lim fine polishing paste.

PS: Thank you for sharing your stunning collection with us!

5th July 2011, 11:00 PM	#1
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Sandwiched Jens, The hooded Katar you present, it seems to show the blade and decoration at the hilt junction as integral where many are hooded examples are blades sandwiched between decorative panels and riveted like the Katar you have shown at the start of the thread. Do you have the hooded piece in hand to offer any insight as to the securing of the blade to the hilt? I think Elgood only offered one of this type where the rest were riveted types as are my two. With regards to the fish, I think they are entirely stylistic representations only, despite the 'gill arrangement only' being like the flathead. There is likely reference or suggestions within publications of early Indian art about the forms of these fish or Vishnu now sitting somewhere in the annals of time.... It is interesting to see the fish symbol grow each step of the way through the taper of the side bar and the presence of the beading throughout shows fantastic quality of workmanship. With regards to the Katar initially posted, would you be kind enough to share an image or two of the designs on the inside of the hilt where the blade joins. The mound appears to have some wonderful iconography. Gav Last edited by freebooter; 5th July 2011 at 11:20 PM. Reason: a few extra words

6th July 2011, 04:34 AM	#2
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	Fish I hate to swim against the current, but, flatfish start out as normal vertically swimming fish. As they mature and evolve one eye migrates around their heads until they are both on the same side. Their colors evolve also much like military planes darker on top lighter on the bottom. To me, I see the smaller fish as vertical. If the fish represent Vishnu perhaps these help to show his evolution. Steve Attached Images

10th July 2011, 08:02 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Actually it would seem the type of fish may be red herrings . I am not sure whether the type of fish are pertinant as often the motif in material culture and of course weapons becomes stylized in representative allegory. As Jens has mentioned, beyond the Hindu representations of fish which I mentioned in what I wrote back in 2007 (Pandya) and the Matsya incarnation of Vishnu, the fish was indeed a dynastic symbol of the nawabs of Awadh (Oudh). In the attached illustration of the silver rupee of Awadh (c.1814-15)there is a stylized fish, which does not however, resemble the examples seen on this katar. Still, in the sense of stylization, the actual image chosen by the artisan is of course his choice and based on personal interpretation. It remains interesting to note the various applications of the fish in symbolism, and thier auspicious meaning in different contexts. While the elements of this katar reflect characteristics of Tanjore katars, Elgood does note that Hindu designs in these katars did influence examples in Golconda/Hyderabad, and from there to Lucknow. Lucknow was the capital of Oudh, so although admittedly tenuous , it is tempting to consider the possibility of this katar being from these Mughal regions. The representation of architectural designs in Indian weapons is a topic worthy of considerably more discussion, and in the attached illustration of the winter diwan (assembly) of a Mughal nawab some interesting similarities to the hilts of some katars and the arches surrounding in the room are seen. Just more observations to discuss further. All best regards, Jim Attached Images

12th December 2016, 05:58 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Gav, looking at some old posts on South Indian katars I saw that I had never shown you the back of the katars, although you asked for a picture - sorry. Here it is. Attached Images

10th July 2011, 12:53 PM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	There is a vital similarity between the fish Jim has just shown us and the original fish (beautiful fish, BTW), and that is that both seem to mix side and top views in a perhaps proto-cubist manner (the European "modern" artists openly derived much of their ideation from foreign cultures). We see the tail as if from the side, looking relatively like a whale tail, compared to the side fins, shown as from above (top and bottom fins on a fish are not usually symmetrical like this), and likewise the barbels (catfish whiskers) on Jim's fish. This makes it harder to analyze whether putting both eyes on one side is bit of realism or of artistic convention. I haven't seen it done on art depicting land animals from India, I don't think. We would probably need more fish art from the region. It's hard to see all the detail on my little screen, but at least one of Jens' larger fish clearly shows a mouth that runs sideways, kind of between the eyes (until I noticed this, I too thought these may be overhead views). Type of fish may be quite important; to seafaring and fishing peoples the differences between types of fish are as clear and vital as the differences between land animals. River fish or ocean fish? That might make a difference. Or for all I know they might just be fish. Lovely fish.

12th December 2016, 07:10 PM	#7
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Jens, please add me to the long list of people envying you! Regarding the cleaning of the blade, the dull grey patination one gets after de-rusting (I get it quite often after using the Renaissance Metal De-Corroder) comes off nicely by wiping the blade with cotton swabs and Renaissance Pre-Lim fine polishing paste. PS: Thank you for sharing your stunning collection with us!