Khanjar from Afghanistan

mahratt · 20th June 2011, 07:12 PM

Collleagues,
I recently bought this khanjar from Oriental-Arms.

http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3709

The description states that it is most likely Afghani, based on the style of decorations. It also refers to Moser's catalogue where a similar one is identified as Afghani.
Unfortunately, neither Mr. Yarom nor myself have an access to that book.
Does anyone here on the Forum have this book? If yes, can you please scan the picture and the text with the Afghani attribution.

Thanks.

ALEX · 20th June 2011, 09:53 PM

I believe no such dagger in Zeller book, and the only similar (but not even close) in Mozer catalogue is listed as Arab Dagger.
Also, the book is in Germant, and catalogue has no text, just pictures/prints and there are no scans available as they're too large to be scanned.

Jens Nordlunde · 20th June 2011, 10:47 PM

I suppose that Mr. Yarome refers to the 1955 catalogue - so why does he not give the exact catalogue number? Besides from this, it really makes me wonder why a so International dealer does not have this catalogue - this makes me real wonder.
Jens

Jim McDougall · 21st June 2011, 04:34 AM

I am also wondering about the Afghani attribution on this khanjhar, and how the veiled reference to the 'Moser' collection supports this. While the suggestion of support from this venerable and now considerably elusive source adds compelling character to the dagger, it is surprising more detail is not with it. I know that Artzi had visited the collection c.1994 (before it was stored away) and considering the volume of dealings he has engaged in daily for decades it seems unfathomable that a dealer of this stature does not have a copy of this valuable work, or a facsimile...at least of the 1955 edition.

I personally would like to know what characterizes this dagger as Afghan, as the wootz pattern resembling Persian does not signify Afghan provenance as far as I am aware. Persian blades and weapons were however highly prized in Arabia . If there were a number of these khanjhars in the Moser collection which had key elements comparable to this one, and all had been collected by Moser in Afghanistan in his travels, then it would have been noted in some degree in subsequent references which used Moser as a benchmark.

Despite the mysterious attribution and temptingly placed reference to the Moser Collection, this is a beautiful khanjhar of outstanding quality, though not necessarily associated with Afghanistan.

As always, looking forward to other views as well as further substantiation concerning the Moser reference. It would be interesting to know what exactly suggests this is Afghan.

All the best,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 21st June 2011, 05:21 PM

Alex, I fully agree with you. I have now been through the 1912 catalogue, the 1955 catalogue and some brochures from the collection, and not found any dagger looking like the one mahratt is showing. The only one I have seen, is like you say, the Arab one.
I am very mystified and would very much like to know where in the collection this Afghan dagger is.
Jens

mahratt · 21st June 2011, 10:18 PM

That is, you do not see any signs that this Khanjar from Afghanistan?

Dmitry

Jens Nordlunde · 21st June 2011, 10:34 PM

I can not say that, but I think the seller has to prove it.

ariel · 22nd June 2011, 02:25 AM

As an aside, we might recall that Oman owned a part of Baluchistan ( current Pakistan), and that quite a lot of Baluchis are still residing in Oman. Perhaps, it might be a mix of different traditions?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 28th June 2011, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

Collleagues,
I recently bought this khanjar from Oriental-Arms.

http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3709

The description states that it is most likely Afghani, based on the style of decorations. It also refers to Moser's catalogue where a similar one is identified as Afghani.
Unfortunately, neither Mr. Yarom nor myself have an access to that book.
Does anyone here on the Forum have this book? If yes, can you please scan the picture and the text with the Afghani attribution.

Thanks.

Salaams, It looks like an Indo Afghan or Indo Persian variant. The blade seems to deserve a far better hilt possibly a gem decorated jade hilt. So whatever its birth c ertificate turns out as... its a nice blade. I note the seller has used some pretty vague and artistic licence in describing the weapon but thats life.. Its not Baluchi but I dont think its exactly Afghan either.. Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Oriental-Arms · 28th June 2011, 03:31 PM

Gentlemen
So much being said that I take the liberty to react.
1) This Khanjar was purchased in the 70th when I was a young (and inexperienced )collector, from a well known London dealer who is regarded a top authority in the field of Ethnographic arms and armor. He suggested the Afghan attribution and showed me a drawing of a similar dagger in Moser catalog (unfortunately I do not remember which one it was)
2) The similarity to Arab Khanjars is clear and also mentioned in the description, however the blade is of far higher quality than those we find on Arab Khanjars. I had two other similar daggers, of similar shapes and sizes, also with a quality watered steel blades (see below). I trust the blades are of Persian origin but the mounts are definitely not Persian nor Indian. I have never seen more of these but I have handled hundreds of Arab Khanjars and never seen one with a blade of this quality. Not being Arab or Persian or Indian, the Suggested Afghan attribution can’t be excluded.
3) I am sorry gentlemen that I could not find a copy of Moser catalog (neither the 1955 or the 1912) and I miss it greatly. Jens, may be you are willing to sell me your copy ?? It will be greatly appreciated.
4) Most important: I may be mistaken. While learning the subject during so many years I made many mistakes and I will probably make more in the future.

Kurt · 29th June 2011, 06:07 PM

Hi ,
In the exhibition, David's Sammling1982 is this dagger(Nr.58) as Jambiya-Arabia-19th century described.
Regards
Kurt

Kurt · 29th June 2011, 06:16 PM

Here is a copy of the catalog

Kurt · 30th June 2011, 10:13 AM

there was a similar one at Hermann Historica,commented as a Khanjar from Kashmir.
Best Kurt

Tatyana Dianova · 30th June 2011, 12:15 PM

Kurt: a great research!
I think that the Kashmir attribution is more probable. Please take a look at the Kashmir metalwork examples attached. Also the rings on the scabbard are identical to the Pan-Indian design used in earrings and thin bangles (you may find a very similar modern examples that originate from Nepal, India or Bali)

Tatyana Dianova · 30th June 2011, 12:19 PM

I'd like to add the pictures of the dagger in question for the future reference:

Kurt · 30th June 2011, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tatyana Dianova

I'd like to add the pictures of the dagger in question for the future reference:

Thanks Tatjana ,
I've always been convinced this kind of daggers come from Kashmir.
Kurt

Oriental-Arms · 30th June 2011, 02:16 PM

Well, we are getting closer to Afghanistan. I was just about to bring tons of arguments why this is not an Arab dagger but Kurt and Tatyana saved me the work - Thanks. I wish to bring up only one point: We have seen here five exemplars, all of the same shape, size, blade quality, materials and decoration, whereas Arab Khanjars are characterized in a big variety of all above. This, IMHO, indicate that these daggers are coming from a very specific area or group of people. To strengthen this argument we should also mention that from the huge variety of Arab Khanjars, rarely we see blades of watered steel, whereas here all are with good wootz blades.

20th June 2011, 07:12 PM	#1
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	Khanjar from Afghanistan Collleagues, I recently bought this khanjar from Oriental-Arms. http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3709 The description states that it is most likely Afghani, based on the style of decorations. It also refers to Moser's catalogue where a similar one is identified as Afghani. Unfortunately, neither Mr. Yarom nor myself have an access to that book. Does anyone here on the Forum have this book? If yes, can you please scan the picture and the text with the Afghani attribution. Thanks.

21st June 2011, 05:21 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	The mystery goes on Alex, I fully agree with you. I have now been through the 1912 catalogue, the 1955 catalogue and some brochures from the collection, and not found any dagger looking like the one mahratt is showing. The only one I have seen, is like you say, the Arab one. I am very mystified and would very much like to know where in the collection this Afghan dagger is. Jens

28th June 2011, 03:31 PM	#10
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	Gentlemen So much being said that I take the liberty to react. 1) This Khanjar was purchased in the 70th when I was a young (and inexperienced )collector, from a well known London dealer who is regarded a top authority in the field of Ethnographic arms and armor. He suggested the Afghan attribution and showed me a drawing of a similar dagger in Moser catalog (unfortunately I do not remember which one it was) 2) The similarity to Arab Khanjars is clear and also mentioned in the description, however the blade is of far higher quality than those we find on Arab Khanjars. I had two other similar daggers, of similar shapes and sizes, also with a quality watered steel blades (see below). I trust the blades are of Persian origin but the mounts are definitely not Persian nor Indian. I have never seen more of these but I have handled hundreds of Arab Khanjars and never seen one with a blade of this quality. Not being Arab or Persian or Indian, the Suggested Afghan attribution can’t be excluded. 3) I am sorry gentlemen that I could not find a copy of Moser catalog (neither the 1955 or the 1912) and I miss it greatly. Jens, may be you are willing to sell me your copy ?? It will be greatly appreciated. 4) Most important: I may be mistaken. While learning the subject during so many years I made many mistakes and I will probably make more in the future. Attached Images Last edited by Oriental-Arms; 28th June 2011 at 03:49 PM.

29th June 2011, 06:07 PM	#11
Kurt Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Germany Posts: 196	Afghan dagger ??? Hi , In the exhibition, David's Sammling1982 is this dagger(Nr.58) as Jambiya-Arabia-19th century described. Regards Kurt

29th June 2011, 06:16 PM	#12
Kurt Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Germany Posts: 196	Afghan dagger ??? Pic Here is a copy of the catalog Attached Images

20th June 2011, 09:53 PM	#2
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	I believe no such dagger in Zeller book, and the only similar (but not even close) in Mozer catalogue is listed as Arab Dagger. Also, the book is in Germant, and catalogue has no text, just pictures/prints and there are no scans available as they're too large to be scanned.

20th June 2011, 10:47 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I suppose that Mr. Yarome refers to the 1955 catalogue - so why does he not give the exact catalogue number? Besides from this, it really makes me wonder why a so International dealer does not have this catalogue - this makes me real wonder. Jens

21st June 2011, 04:34 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	I am also wondering about the Afghani attribution on this khanjhar, and how the veiled reference to the 'Moser' collection supports this. While the suggestion of support from this venerable and now considerably elusive source adds compelling character to the dagger, it is surprising more detail is not with it. I know that Artzi had visited the collection c.1994 (before it was stored away) and considering the volume of dealings he has engaged in daily for decades it seems unfathomable that a dealer of this stature does not have a copy of this valuable work, or a facsimile...at least of the 1955 edition. I personally would like to know what characterizes this dagger as Afghan, as the wootz pattern resembling Persian does not signify Afghan provenance as far as I am aware. Persian blades and weapons were however highly prized in Arabia . If there were a number of these khanjhars in the Moser collection which had key elements comparable to this one, and all had been collected by Moser in Afghanistan in his travels, then it would have been noted in some degree in subsequent references which used Moser as a benchmark. Despite the mysterious attribution and temptingly placed reference to the Moser Collection, this is a beautiful khanjhar of outstanding quality, though not necessarily associated with Afghanistan. As always, looking forward to other views as well as further substantiation concerning the Moser reference. It would be interesting to know what exactly suggests this is Afghan. All the best, Jim

21st June 2011, 10:18 PM	#6
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	That is, you do not see any signs that this Khanjar from Afghanistan? Dmitry

21st June 2011, 10:34 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I can not say that, but I think the seller has to prove it.

22nd June 2011, 02:25 AM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	As an aside, we might recall that Oman owned a part of Baluchistan ( current Pakistan), and that quite a lot of Baluchis are still residing in Oman. Perhaps, it might be a mix of different traditions?

30th June 2011, 12:15 PM	#14
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 695	Kurt: a great research! I think that the Kashmir attribution is more probable. Please take a look at the Kashmir metalwork examples attached. Also the rings on the scabbard are identical to the Pan-Indian design used in earrings and thin bangles (you may find a very similar modern examples that originate from Nepal, India or Bali) Attached Images

30th June 2011, 12:19 PM	#15
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 695	I'd like to add the pictures of the dagger in question for the future reference: Attached Images

30th June 2011, 02:16 PM	#17
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	Well, we are getting closer to Afghanistan. I was just about to bring tons of arguments why this is not an Arab dagger but Kurt and Tatyana saved me the work - Thanks. I wish to bring up only one point: We have seen here five exemplars, all of the same shape, size, blade quality, materials and decoration, whereas Arab Khanjars are characterized in a big variety of all above. This, IMHO, indicate that these daggers are coming from a very specific area or group of people. To strengthen this argument we should also mention that from the huge variety of Arab Khanjars, rarely we see blades of watered steel, whereas here all are with good wootz blades.