Oh yes!

RDGAC · 26th June 2011, 01:01 PM

My latest acquisition! Bought from a dealer Daan Saaf again, though not without a struggle getting her back to York.

43.25in, watered, silver-inlaid barrel of approx. .60 bore. EIC lock, converted locally for percussion ignition. Stock seems to be in good fettle, no major cracks or failures; the area around the nipple and barrel tang's a bit worn, as you'd expect (huzzah for corrosive primers), the ramrod's not original (or if it is, it's been cut down or broken at some point), and the tang screw seems to have stripped its threads. Nonetheless, for her age (at least 100) she's doing well, I think.

Rust Collector · 26th June 2011, 07:55 PM

The pattern welding of the barrel is exquisite. I'm no expert but I would hang that on my wall anyday.

RDGAC · 27th June 2011, 10:02 AM

Thanks! I actually didn't know the barrel was watered when I got hold of the gun; it was only on closer examination that I spotted the patterning, which of course made me very happy indeed.

rickystl · 27th June 2011, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RDGAC

Thanks! I actually didn't know the barrel was watered when I got hold of the gun; it was only on closer examination that I spotted the patterning, which of course made me very happy indeed.

Hello. Nice piece for your collection. Yes, very nice barrel. Looks almost Indian (?). Nice piece. Rick.

Atlantia · 27th June 2011, 07:09 PM

NICE!

The damascus barrel is superb. My first thought was Turkish.

Best
Gene

RDGAC · 27th June 2011, 07:56 PM

Thanks again, all

Why Turkish, Gene? I'm still very ignorant and would love to learn the recognition features. My first thought (from my limited memory) was Persian, early 19th Century (I'm working on the assumption that the whole piece was assembled about then; the lock's clearly a converted flintlock, after all, and its relative simplicity made me think of the 1805 India Pattern Brown Bess).

Also, I've never seen this sort of fitting to attach the hammer to the shaft. it looks unpleasantly permanent, and I was rather hoping to strip the lock for a clean and a bit of oiling. Looks like it's a screw of some sort, but not one moved by an ordinary screwdriver; is that brass bit a washer?

rickystl · 27th June 2011, 08:02 PM

though not without a struggle getting her back to York.

Here's a pic of mine that I had to struggle with to get her FROM the UK.

One going in to the UK. One going out of the UK. Rick.

RDGAC · 27th June 2011, 08:38 PM

'ello 'ello 'ello, I recognise that! That musket was for sale at the Antiques Storehouse, where I got my first, about a year back. I seem to recall you were going to get a barrel liner put in her - how'd that pan out?

Atlantia · 27th June 2011, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RDGAC

Thanks again, all

Why Turkish, Gene? I'm still very ignorant and would love to learn the recognition features. My first thought (from my limited memory) was Persian, early 19th Century (I'm working on the assumption that the whole piece was assembled about then; the lock's clearly a converted flintlock, after all, and its relative simplicity made me think of the 1805 India Pattern Brown Bess).

Also, I've never seen this sort of fitting to attach the hammer to the shaft. it looks unpleasantly permanent, and I was rather hoping to strip the lock for a clean and a bit of oiling. Looks like it's a screw of some sort, but not one moved by an ordinary screwdriver; is that brass bit a washer?

Just the quality of the pattern welding on the barrel and the 'patterns' themselves really. Not that I'm any kind of expert on Jezail'.

rickystl · 27th June 2011, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RDGAC

'ello 'ello 'ello, I recognise that! That musket was for sale at the Antiques Storehouse, where I got my first, about a year back. I seem to recall you were going to get a barrel liner put in her - how'd that pan out?

Hello. Yes, that's where I bought it. Took forever to get a proper invoice from the owner. After I received the gun (with about 1/4" of paperwork) I noticed it was missing the whole nipple/drum assembly. Had I known you then, I would have asked you to inspect it for me before I bought it. But, it's OK. I can make a new drum/nipple assembly. I have not started to rebuild this one yet. Too many others I'm working on. The barrel on mine is plain and fairly well pitted. So it's a good candidate to do this. I would not do it with your barrel. I wouldn't want to risk the decoration/steel on the barrel.
Your Lock: Where the hammer screw would normally be, your's appears to be a pin/washer assemble held tight from the INSIDE of the lock. But not sure. If you remove the two scews from the stirrup (the semi-U shaped item) you can probably tell how the hammer is held on. I would first use some good penetrating oil on those screws, and let it sit for a few days.
Your's should clean up very well. Rick.

RDGAC · 27th June 2011, 10:36 PM

Hello Rick - in fairness, I live towards the opposite end of the country (York's about 200 miles away from Brighton), and it costs a goodly amount to cover the distance; I'm not sure I'd be of too much use.

I've pulled the lock apart as far as I can (quick squirt of WD40 seems to have been enough to slacken the screws, the mainspring's excepted) and can't see any obvious means of detaching the tumbler from the hammer from within. There's a further problem: the barrel tang screw is attached to the sling swivel by a bent iron spike, which looks very unlikely to respond well to being pulled, pushed, hammered etc. Meanwhile, the bottom (or, depending on PoV, the top) of the screw has been hammered flat, and spread accordingly; this is presumably intended to stop the screw from slipping through, as it's likely worn its threads right out. This likely means dismounting the barrel is going to be a tricky proposition.

One obvious (but invasive) solution would be to file away the flattened-out edges of the screw and simply pull the whole assembly out; then, assuming I can find an appropriate die nut, gently freshen up the threads a bit and see if they'll then grip the hole in the tang. If that fails, I can then replace the screw and, mounting the gun correctly, gently hammer the screw's head until it spreads enough to be held in place again. Any thoughts, chaps?

RDGAC · 30th June 2011, 09:57 PM

Some more detailed photos. Can't figure out that hammer attachment, and you can hopefully see why. Lock marks look genuine to me, but we shall see. Hammer's unusually nicely made, even though the throw seems a little off. Also, there are a couple of views of the barrel bands and the silver inlay towards the rear sight.

RDGAC · 30th June 2011, 10:13 PM

And some more. I'd like some help regarding the preservation of this sling; it looks and feels like I think hemp ought to (i.e. rough as the devil) but I can't be sure since I've never really seen hemp rope before. The modern wood screw in the trigger guard is a bit of a disappointment. The lock's in reasonable shape but worn, and will fire from the half-cock. No half-cock grab seems to be present when fired from the full-cock, however, so that's a plus. The copper barrel band must, I suspect, be a recent-ish replacement (where recent means 20th Century). And I wonder how much silver the old girl had on her, once upon a time. Never seen this sort of chequered pattern to it before; is there a term for it, or is this just wear?

RDGAC · 30th June 2011, 10:31 PM

And more! Final batch. Anyone know who "JW" was? I'm guessing the lockmaker's initials. Seems to suggest, very strongly, that this is a British lock - as does the overall quality. The spring is still tremendously strong and cocking the gun isn't easy, although there's also a lot of gunk in the mechanism which needs clearing out. And if anyone has any ideas on this orange stuff I've found on both the ramrod channel, and near the tang, speak up. It looks like paint; ever heard of Afghans painting their gun stocks?

rickystl · 30th June 2011, 10:50 PM

Hello again. Oh, the joys of working on antique middle eastern firearms

After reading your last Post, and again looking at your photos. First of all the Hammer Screw: I looks like it may have had a slot for a screwdrive at one time in the past (?). Maybe the threads were so worn, and maybe an ear was broke on the screw head, someone just hammered it flat to keep the hammer from falling off. That would explain the brass washer under it. You might use a hacksaw

and cut a slot on the head so you can use a flat blade screwdriver and try to remove it. Of course, this assumes that it actually is threaded into the tumbler/shaft. NOTE: I have seen locks where the tumbler and shaft are one piece. And others that are two pieces.
The Barrel: Hmmmm. It would be interesting to know if that pin that goes from the sling swivel is threaded to the barrel tang. Or is it just a pin that is hammered to the tang. I can't tell by the photo. The small pin at the sling swivel would have to be removed in any case. It's probably malable iron and would be easy to file narrow - just enough to remove it. Keep me posted on your progress. Your's has all kinds of interesting twists and turns to dis-assemble

By the way, Afgan rifles are noted for this. Most saw so much hard use that when a repair was needed in the field they likely resorted to whatever method of repair was available with no gunsmith available. Their guns were probably in a constant state of repair. But this is part of the "mystic" I find so interesting about these guns. Again, thanks for posting. Rick.

RDGAC · 30th June 2011, 11:16 PM

Rick: To answer one query, the tang screw is indeed a screw; the threads are so faint it's not at all easy to make them out, but there they certainly are. I suspect it's just become so worn that someone's peened over the end and left it at that. In fairness to whoever it was, if the bloody barrel's working up enough kinetic energy during recoil to put any real stress on the tang screw, you're doing something wrong in any case!

Edit: It seems that (according to a very helpful chap on another forum), this is an EIC Baker pattern lock, made from 1818-1839. It also seems, annoyingly, that the cock was originally secured by something called a "bun nut" (found a few pictures but can't find a Google match for the term itself) secured to a threaded extension to the square, and he suspects that this extension has been peened over during the conversion as it was beyond the capabilities of the local craftsmen to make a replacement bun nut for the new hammer.

rickystl · 1st July 2011, 05:41 PM

Hello again. I posted my last reply just before I saw the additional photos. Think you and I posted almost the same moment?
The Barrel: I just noticed the single hole rear sight on the barrel. That shape/style is very much Turkish or Persian. Could be the origin of the barrel?
Barrel Tang Screw: I now see what you mean. You can file down the burr on the top near the tang. Then remove that small pin at the lower end near the sling swivel. You should then be able to remove the barrel screw from the bottom. The barrel tang and screw can have new threads made later. (I'm assuming you want to remove the barrel). Most Afgan rifles I've seen have fairly thick barrel bands. To get the rear bands off you will probably have to remove the forward sling swival. Instead of a screw attachment, most have a pin and brace assembly. Yet another pin

That will have to be cut off on one end. (The pin can have threads added later if you want). If the barrel bands won't slide off by hand, a smaller hammer and a wooden dowel will usually work.
The Lock: The lock looks very much like a locally made one. Maybe "copied" from the Baker pattern?
Keep me posted on your progress. Rick.

RDGAC · 3rd July 2011, 12:10 AM

Don't think it's a copied lock, Rick. If it is, it's astoundingly good; the fit and finish of the parts is superb and conforms exactly to what I'd expect of a contemporary British lock, and the stamps and engravings (including the tiny initials of JW (likely Job Wilkes, of Darlaston, Staffordshire, or so I'm told) the lock-maker, on the inside of the lockplate), and the spring is certainly far stronger than any Afghan spring I've yet seen. The hammer I'd agree is a local copy (albeit of very high quality; the throw's not quite right for it to hit the nipple square-on, but the engraving's very good and it's beautifully shaped - even the cross-hatching on the spur is bloody good).

rickystl · 3rd July 2011, 06:31 PM

I see what you mean. Yes, agreed. After a closer look at your photos, I'm sure that's an English lock. The J.W., etc. It's just the hammer that appears locally made. Which may be the reason why the hammer is fastened to the lock in that manner. The user probably could not find a screw that matched.
Your gun should clean up real nice. I really like the barrel on yours. Rick.

RDGAC · 3rd July 2011, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

I see what you mean. Yes, agreed. After a closer look at your photos, I'm sure that's an English lock. The J.W., etc. It's just the hammer that appears locally made. Which may be the reason why the hammer is fastened to the lock in that manner. The user probably could not find a screw that matched.
Your gun should clean up real nice. I really like the barrel on yours. Rick.

It's a fine barrel, yes. The weight's reassuringly high. Only problem is that removing the barrel bands or putting them back erodes that lovely patina on it.

26th June 2011, 01:01 PM	#1
RDGAC Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: York, UK Posts: 167	Oh yes! My latest acquisition! Bought from a dealer Daan Saaf again, though not without a struggle getting her back to York. 43.25in, watered, silver-inlaid barrel of approx. .60 bore. EIC lock, converted locally for percussion ignition. Stock seems to be in good fettle, no major cracks or failures; the area around the nipple and barrel tang's a bit worn, as you'd expect (huzzah for corrosive primers), the ramrod's not original (or if it is, it's been cut down or broken at some point), and the tang screw seems to have stripped its threads. Nonetheless, for her age (at least 100) she's doing well, I think. Attached Images

27th June 2011, 08:02 PM	#7
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	though not without a struggle getting her back to York. Here's a pic of mine that I had to struggle with to get her FROM the UK. One going in to the UK. One going out of the UK. Rick. Attached Images

27th June 2011, 10:36 PM	#11
RDGAC Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: York, UK Posts: 167	Hello Rick - in fairness, I live towards the opposite end of the country (York's about 200 miles away from Brighton), and it costs a goodly amount to cover the distance; I'm not sure I'd be of too much use. I've pulled the lock apart as far as I can (quick squirt of WD40 seems to have been enough to slacken the screws, the mainspring's excepted) and can't see any obvious means of detaching the tumbler from the hammer from within. There's a further problem: the barrel tang screw is attached to the sling swivel by a bent iron spike, which looks very unlikely to respond well to being pulled, pushed, hammered etc. Meanwhile, the bottom (or, depending on PoV, the top) of the screw has been hammered flat, and spread accordingly; this is presumably intended to stop the screw from slipping through, as it's likely worn its threads right out. This likely means dismounting the barrel is going to be a tricky proposition. One obvious (but invasive) solution would be to file away the flattened-out edges of the screw and simply pull the whole assembly out; then, assuming I can find an appropriate die nut, gently freshen up the threads a bit and see if they'll then grip the hole in the tang. If that fails, I can then replace the screw and, mounting the gun correctly, gently hammer the screw's head until it spreads enough to be held in place again. Any thoughts, chaps? Last edited by RDGAC; 27th June 2011 at 11:00 PM.

30th June 2011, 09:57 PM	#12
RDGAC Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: York, UK Posts: 167	Some more detailed photos. Can't figure out that hammer attachment, and you can hopefully see why. Lock marks look genuine to me, but we shall see. Hammer's unusually nicely made, even though the throw seems a little off. Also, there are a couple of views of the barrel bands and the silver inlay towards the rear sight. Attached Images

30th June 2011, 10:13 PM	#13
RDGAC Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: York, UK Posts: 167	And some more. I'd like some help regarding the preservation of this sling; it looks and feels like I think hemp ought to (i.e. rough as the devil) but I can't be sure since I've never really seen hemp rope before. The modern wood screw in the trigger guard is a bit of a disappointment. The lock's in reasonable shape but worn, and will fire from the half-cock. No half-cock grab seems to be present when fired from the full-cock, however, so that's a plus. The copper barrel band must, I suspect, be a recent-ish replacement (where recent means 20th Century). And I wonder how much silver the old girl had on her, once upon a time. Never seen this sort of chequered pattern to it before; is there a term for it, or is this just wear? Attached Images

26th June 2011, 07:55 PM	#2
Rust Collector Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 11	The pattern welding of the barrel is exquisite. I'm no expert but I would hang that on my wall anyday.

27th June 2011, 10:02 AM	#3
RDGAC Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: York, UK Posts: 167	Thanks! I actually didn't know the barrel was watered when I got hold of the gun; it was only on closer examination that I spotted the patterning, which of course made me very happy indeed.

27th June 2011, 07:09 PM	#5
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	NICE! The damascus barrel is superb. My first thought was Turkish. Best Gene

27th June 2011, 07:56 PM	#6
RDGAC Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: York, UK Posts: 167	Thanks again, all Why Turkish, Gene? I'm still very ignorant and would love to learn the recognition features. My first thought (from my limited memory) was Persian, early 19th Century (I'm working on the assumption that the whole piece was assembled about then; the lock's clearly a converted flintlock, after all, and its relative simplicity made me think of the 1805 India Pattern Brown Bess). Also, I've never seen this sort of fitting to attach the hammer to the shaft. it looks unpleasantly permanent, and I was rather hoping to strip the lock for a clean and a bit of oiling. Looks like it's a screw of some sort, but not one moved by an ordinary screwdriver; is that brass bit a washer?

27th June 2011, 08:38 PM	#8
RDGAC Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: York, UK Posts: 167	'ello 'ello 'ello, I recognise that! That musket was for sale at the Antiques Storehouse, where I got my first, about a year back. I seem to recall you were going to get a barrel liner put in her - how'd that pan out?

30th June 2011, 10:31 PM	#14
RDGAC Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: York, UK Posts: 167	And more! Final batch. Anyone know who "JW" was? I'm guessing the lockmaker's initials. Seems to suggest, very strongly, that this is a British lock - as does the overall quality. The spring is still tremendously strong and cocking the gun isn't easy, although there's also a lot of gunk in the mechanism which needs clearing out. And if anyone has any ideas on this orange stuff I've found on both the ramrod channel, and near the tang, speak up. It looks like paint; ever heard of Afghans painting their gun stocks? Attached Images

30th June 2011, 10:50 PM	#15
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Hello again. Oh, the joys of working on antique middle eastern firearms After reading your last Post, and again looking at your photos. First of all the Hammer Screw: I looks like it may have had a slot for a screwdrive at one time in the past (?). Maybe the threads were so worn, and maybe an ear was broke on the screw head, someone just hammered it flat to keep the hammer from falling off. That would explain the brass washer under it. You might use a hacksaw and cut a slot on the head so you can use a flat blade screwdriver and try to remove it. Of course, this assumes that it actually is threaded into the tumbler/shaft. NOTE: I have seen locks where the tumbler and shaft are one piece. And others that are two pieces. The Barrel: Hmmmm. It would be interesting to know if that pin that goes from the sling swivel is threaded to the barrel tang. Or is it just a pin that is hammered to the tang. I can't tell by the photo. The small pin at the sling swivel would have to be removed in any case. It's probably malable iron and would be easy to file narrow - just enough to remove it. Keep me posted on your progress. Your's has all kinds of interesting twists and turns to dis-assemble By the way, Afgan rifles are noted for this. Most saw so much hard use that when a repair was needed in the field they likely resorted to whatever method of repair was available with no gunsmith available. Their guns were probably in a constant state of repair. But this is part of the "mystic" I find so interesting about these guns. Again, thanks for posting. Rick.

30th June 2011, 11:16 PM	#16
RDGAC Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: York, UK Posts: 167	Rick: To answer one query, the tang screw is indeed a screw; the threads are so faint it's not at all easy to make them out, but there they certainly are. I suspect it's just become so worn that someone's peened over the end and left it at that. In fairness to whoever it was, if the bloody barrel's working up enough kinetic energy during recoil to put any real stress on the tang screw, you're doing something wrong in any case! Edit: It seems that (according to a very helpful chap on another forum), this is an EIC Baker pattern lock, made from 1818-1839. It also seems, annoyingly, that the cock was originally secured by something called a "bun nut" (found a few pictures but can't find a Google match for the term itself) secured to a threaded extension to the square, and he suspects that this extension has been peened over during the conversion as it was beyond the capabilities of the local craftsmen to make a replacement bun nut for the new hammer. Last edited by RDGAC; 30th June 2011 at 11:41 PM.

1st July 2011, 05:41 PM	#17
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Hello again. I posted my last reply just before I saw the additional photos. Think you and I posted almost the same moment? The Barrel: I just noticed the single hole rear sight on the barrel. That shape/style is very much Turkish or Persian. Could be the origin of the barrel? Barrel Tang Screw: I now see what you mean. You can file down the burr on the top near the tang. Then remove that small pin at the lower end near the sling swivel. You should then be able to remove the barrel screw from the bottom. The barrel tang and screw can have new threads made later. (I'm assuming you want to remove the barrel). Most Afgan rifles I've seen have fairly thick barrel bands. To get the rear bands off you will probably have to remove the forward sling swival. Instead of a screw attachment, most have a pin and brace assembly. Yet another pin That will have to be cut off on one end. (The pin can have threads added later if you want). If the barrel bands won't slide off by hand, a smaller hammer and a wooden dowel will usually work. The Lock: The lock looks very much like a locally made one. Maybe "copied" from the Baker pattern? Keep me posted on your progress. Rick.

3rd July 2011, 12:10 AM	#18
RDGAC Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: York, UK Posts: 167	Don't think it's a copied lock, Rick. If it is, it's astoundingly good; the fit and finish of the parts is superb and conforms exactly to what I'd expect of a contemporary British lock, and the stamps and engravings (including the tiny initials of JW (likely Job Wilkes, of Darlaston, Staffordshire, or so I'm told) the lock-maker, on the inside of the lockplate), and the spring is certainly far stronger than any Afghan spring I've yet seen. The hammer I'd agree is a local copy (albeit of very high quality; the throw's not quite right for it to hit the nipple square-on, but the engraving's very good and it's beautifully shaped - even the cross-hatching on the spur is bloody good).

3rd July 2011, 06:31 PM	#19
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	I see what you mean. Yes, agreed. After a closer look at your photos, I'm sure that's an English lock. The J.W., etc. It's just the hammer that appears locally made. Which may be the reason why the hammer is fastened to the lock in that manner. The user probably could not find a screw that matched. Your gun should clean up real nice. I really like the barrel on yours. Rick.