Strange Indo-Arab swords?!

M.carter · 26th June 2005, 02:09 PM

Hello,

I bring to light a topic which was probably never discussed before. Ive been seeing alot of these swords lately, yet I wasnt sure. Some people claim they are made in Yemen, others in India. Can anyone enlighten me on this subject.

Oriental Arms Sword

Oriental Arms Sword 2

Here, Artzi says that they're made in southern Arabia, namely Yemen.

Jens Nordlunde · 26th June 2005, 03:59 PM

Notice that the e-bay man writes Hyderabad N India - that is in Sind, it is not the Hyderabad in Deccan.

B.I · 26th June 2005, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M.carter

Some people claim they are made in Yemen, others in India.

i think the answer is both. the sword is arabian in style and manafacture, but there was a huge import of indian made swords into arabia, and these were not just indian style, but indian made arabian swords.
elgood discusses this in his book on arabian arms, with a reference to the indian link.

Jens Nordlunde · 26th June 2005, 09:45 PM

Very well put Brian, and very true as it was.
We mostly tend to forget that trade had been going on for hundreds of years, people had settled in many different places, other than from wher they originally came, and brougt their culture an their habit of living with them.

Jim McDougall · 27th June 2005, 02:56 AM

I agree with Brian, that it is difficult to assign either Indian or Arabian origins to this distinct form of sword as it is in effect both. As Jens has noted, the key to most diffusion of culture, in which we focus primarily on weapons, has been carried via trade.
As has also been noted, these swords are described in Elgood ("The Arms and Armour of Arabia") as 'Hadhrami', essentially from Hadhramaut in southern Arabia, as part of the Yemen. In this reference, Elgood illustrates three sabres of this distinct hilt form (2.9, 2.10 and 2.11, p.13-14) and in the text discusses the Hadhrami as frequently serving as mercenaries in Hyderabad. Here he notes that "..the swords are certainly made there and locally" (p.15), with one of the swords illustrated noting that the scabbard is likely locally made.
There are a number of other key elements which connect the various Arabian swords from this region to probable Indian manufacture, as described further in Elgood.

These Arabian swords have the distinct nimcha type nock at the base of the grip, but the curious hilt form begs more explanation. The obliquely canted
pommel seems to recall another familiar hilt form, and if I may dare to use 'free association'

reminds me of similar hilts from the Indonesian archipelago, particularly Sumatra. I looked through Van Zonneveld ("Traditional Weapons of the Indonesian Archipelago") and found various forms of klewang, pakayun, andar andar etc. which seemed to favor the same oblique pommel shapes. One example emphasized the triple feature at the pommel ,'hulu boh glima' (p.52) which suggested the pomegranate as the source of the stylized hilt form.

With the heavy Arab trade that extended from Malabar and into Ceylon with extensions into Malaysian and Indonesian regions as well, it seems quite plausible that such exotica might have returned to Arabia via India, especially as the prevalence of Indian made swords has been established. As always, stylized motif and form tends to degenerate as it becomes more removed from its origin, whether by time, distance, or both.

For another interesting comparison, in the Elgood illustrations of the Hadhrami sabres in 2.9 and 2.10, look at the chowk on the crossguards and note the crosslike geometric floral device at the center, then look at the Tatar sabre on the thread with that title posted by Perkun...the crosslike floral device is strikingly similar on the 17th century Tatar sabre. Another very interesting possibility in cultural diffusion!.

Best regards,
Jim

Rivkin · 27th June 2005, 03:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

For another interesting comparison, in the Elgood illustrations of the Hadhrami sabres in 2.9 and 2.10, look at the chowk on the crossguards and note the crosslike geometric floral device at the center, then look at the Tatar sabre on the thread with that title posted by Perkun...the crosslike floral device is strikingly similar on the 17th century Tatar sabre. Another very interesting possibility in cultural diffusion!.
Best regards,
Jim

Attached is a crosslike floral design from a georgian sabre - also quite similar to tatar sabres ?

Jim McDougall · 27th June 2005, 05:19 AM

Kirill,
Excellent!!! What a beauty!
Yes thats pretty much the same type 'cross' effect I was referring to. It is interesting to see how widespread was the Persian influence on so many cultural spheres' weapons. While discussing the connection between Mughal India and Arabia with the commerce in weapons, it is important to note that there were profound trade connections between India and trade centers in the Caucusus as well, via Central Asia.
Thanks very much for posting this.
All the best,
Jim

ariel · 27th June 2005, 04:00 PM

Kirill,
Is it really old or a modern manufacture?
If the former, I am acutely jealous....

26th June 2005, 02:09 PM	#1
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	Strange Indo-Arab swords?! Hello, I bring to light a topic which was probably never discussed before. Ive been seeing alot of these swords lately, yet I wasnt sure. Some people claim they are made in Yemen, others in India. Can anyone enlighten me on this subject. Oriental Arms Sword Oriental Arms Sword 2 Here, Artzi says that they're made in southern Arabia, namely Yemen. Last edited by Rick; 26th June 2005 at 04:54 PM.

26th June 2005, 03:59 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Notice that the e-bay man writes Hyderabad N India - that is in Sind, it is not the Hyderabad in Deccan.

26th June 2005, 09:45 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Very well put Brian, and very true as it was. We mostly tend to forget that trade had been going on for hundreds of years, people had settled in many different places, other than from wher they originally came, and brougt their culture an their habit of living with them.

27th June 2005, 02:56 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,942	I agree with Brian, that it is difficult to assign either Indian or Arabian origins to this distinct form of sword as it is in effect both. As Jens has noted, the key to most diffusion of culture, in which we focus primarily on weapons, has been carried via trade. As has also been noted, these swords are described in Elgood ("The Arms and Armour of Arabia") as 'Hadhrami', essentially from Hadhramaut in southern Arabia, as part of the Yemen. In this reference, Elgood illustrates three sabres of this distinct hilt form (2.9, 2.10 and 2.11, p.13-14) and in the text discusses the Hadhrami as frequently serving as mercenaries in Hyderabad. Here he notes that "..the swords are certainly made there and locally" (p.15), with one of the swords illustrated noting that the scabbard is likely locally made. There are a number of other key elements which connect the various Arabian swords from this region to probable Indian manufacture, as described further in Elgood. These Arabian swords have the distinct nimcha type nock at the base of the grip, but the curious hilt form begs more explanation. The obliquely canted pommel seems to recall another familiar hilt form, and if I may dare to use 'free association' reminds me of similar hilts from the Indonesian archipelago, particularly Sumatra. I looked through Van Zonneveld ("Traditional Weapons of the Indonesian Archipelago") and found various forms of klewang, pakayun, andar andar etc. which seemed to favor the same oblique pommel shapes. One example emphasized the triple feature at the pommel ,'hulu boh glima' (p.52) which suggested the pomegranate as the source of the stylized hilt form. With the heavy Arab trade that extended from Malabar and into Ceylon with extensions into Malaysian and Indonesian regions as well, it seems quite plausible that such exotica might have returned to Arabia via India, especially as the prevalence of Indian made swords has been established. As always, stylized motif and form tends to degenerate as it becomes more removed from its origin, whether by time, distance, or both. For another interesting comparison, in the Elgood illustrations of the Hadhrami sabres in 2.9 and 2.10, look at the chowk on the crossguards and note the crosslike geometric floral device at the center, then look at the Tatar sabre on the thread with that title posted by Perkun...the crosslike floral device is strikingly similar on the 17th century Tatar sabre. Another very interesting possibility in cultural diffusion!. Best regards, Jim

27th June 2005, 05:19 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,942	Kirill, Excellent!!! What a beauty! Yes thats pretty much the same type 'cross' effect I was referring to. It is interesting to see how widespread was the Persian influence on so many cultural spheres' weapons. While discussing the connection between Mughal India and Arabia with the commerce in weapons, it is important to note that there were profound trade connections between India and trade centers in the Caucusus as well, via Central Asia. Thanks very much for posting this. All the best, Jim

27th June 2005, 04:00 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Kirill, Is it really old or a modern manufacture? If the former, I am acutely jealous....